<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">which doesn't mean I agree btw<div><br><div><div><div>On 09 May 2011, at 22:44, isjtar wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">that's not all he said.<div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 09 May 2011, at 17:54, <a href="mailto:3str0g3n@gmail.com">3str0g3n@gmail.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:list@isjtar.org">list@isjtar.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">it's not a cliché if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience.<div><br>
</div><div>where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music.</div><div>the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively.</div>
<div>sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. </div><div><br>
</div><div>then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact.</div><div>I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system.</div>
<div>it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this.</div>
<div>if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me.</div><div><br></div><div>I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does.</div>
<div><br></div><font color="#888888"><div>isjtar</div></font><div><br></div><div>PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. </div><div>and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit!</div>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, <a href="mailto:3str0g3n@gmail.com" target="_blank">3str0g3n@gmail.com</a> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite">Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml</a><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeffreymelton@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeffreymelton@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:arial"><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">
This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. </div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy).</div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. </div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. <a href="http://Kickstarter.com/" target="_blank">Kickstarter.com</a>) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. </div>
<div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;min-height:15px"><br></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV.</div>
</span></font><div>
</div></span></span></font><div>
<div><div><div>
<span style="font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse">Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars</span></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></font><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:microsound-request@or8.net" target="_blank">microsound-request@or8.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200<br>
From: isjtar <<a href="mailto:list@isjtar.org" target="_blank">list@isjtar.org</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:microsound@microsound.org" target="_blank">microsound@microsound.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless<br>
idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C@isjtar.org" target="_blank">33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C@isjtar.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is)<br>
<br>
however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that.<br>
experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album.<br>
with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean.<br>
<br>
then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote:<br>
<br>
> I have never illegally downloaded music - fact.<br>
><br>
> David Newman<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.audiomoves.com/" target="_blank">http://www.audiomoves.com</a> | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://www.audiobulb.com/" target="_blank">http://www.audiobulb.com</a> | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:<a href="mailto:maya@elevatorium.org" target="_blank">maya@elevatorium.org</a>]<br>
> Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43<br>
> To: David Newman<br>
> Cc: <<a href="mailto:idm@hyperreal.org" target="_blank">idm@hyperreal.org</a>>; ambient; <<a href="mailto:microsound-announce@microsound.nexthop.net" target="_blank">microsound-announce@microsound.nexthop.net</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels<br>
><br>
> No, I am not naive.<br>
> I've been in the industry and I know how it is.<br>
><br>
> You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only.<br>
><br>
> People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it.<br>
><br>
> Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap.<br>
><br>
> For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music.<br>
><br>
> A ton of people in the industry download music.<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPhone<br>
><br>
> On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" <<a href="mailto:dwnewman@clara.co.uk" target="_blank">dwnewman@clara.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Maya<br>
>><br>
>> You are so naive<br>
>><br>
>> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music.<br>
>><br>
>> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold.<br>
>><br>
>> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music.<br>
>><br>
>> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> David Newman<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.audiomoves.com/" target="_blank">http://www.audiomoves.com</a> | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.audiobulb.com/" target="_blank">http://www.audiobulb.com</a> | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:<a href="mailto:maya@elevatorium.org" target="_blank">maya@elevatorium.org</a>]<br>
>> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11<br>
>> To: David Newman<br>
>> Cc: <<a href="mailto:idm@hyperreal.org" target="_blank">idm@hyperreal.org</a>>; ambient; <<a href="mailto:microsound-announce@microsound.nexthop.net" target="_blank">microsound-announce@microsound.nexthop.net</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels<br>
>><br>
>> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain.<br>
>><br>
>> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music.<br>
>><br>
>> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it.<br>
>><br>
>> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff.<br>
>><br>
>> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so.<br>
>><br>
>> Just saying.<br>
>><br>
>> Sent from my iPhone<br>
>><br>
>> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" <<a href="mailto:dwnewman@clara.co.uk" target="_blank">dwnewman@clara.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> To the thoughtless idiots....<br>
>>><br>
>>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar.<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm" target="_blank">http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is.<br>
>>><br>
>>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing for good.<br>
>>><br>
>>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid.<br>
>>><br>
>>> David Newman<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.audiomoves.com/" target="_blank">http://www.audiomoves.com</a> | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.audiobulb.com/" target="_blank">http://www.audiobulb.com</a> | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> No virus found in this message.<br>
>> Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com/" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
>> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11<br>
>><br>
><br>
> No virus found in this message.<br>
> Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com/" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11<br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA<br>
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