Right--with electronic music a composer essentially also becomes an instrument inventor/builder and performer. I'm drawing a blank on the exact reference right now, but I remember an electronic music practitioner in some mag talking about having to choose (each day?) between actually being "creative," dealing with notes/sounds and learning software/gear, which can be tedious and feel less creative at times. blah blah<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Batuhan Bozkurt <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:batuhan@batuhanbozkurt.com">batuhan@batuhanbozkurt.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi David,<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I sometimes feel like despite all the advances done with electronic<br>
> music tools, it is extremely time consuming to do anything nontrivial,<br>
> involving many hours of set up; whereas I can write something<br>
> extremely intricate for, say, violin and piano, and get the most<br>
> incredible palette of sounds by writing a few notes on a piece of<br>
> paper. I don't understand why it should be so inherently hard to<br>
> create anything "musical" with electronic means??? I don't feel the<br>
> need to build my own piano and violin to write for piano and violin,<br>
> yet I feel like that is what I'm being required to do to compose<br>
> electronic music.<br>
<br>
</div>I don't really think that this is a fair way of looking at this. Writing intricate yet functional things for traditional instruments require years of training. Playing those instruments also require a massive amount of training. Why should composing for and playing with electronic instruments be different in this sense? It is hard for me to play the violin for example, because I am not trained to play that instrument. But I can write some music for violin because I worked on that stuff. It took some years of my life to do that. It would be extremely frustrating for me to do it properly, otherwise. Same goes with electronic instruments. After all, they don't generate musically interesting sounds that fit into a particular composer's intents, automagically.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> These answers are interesting, and do suggest one possible approach,<br>
> which seems to be to let the electronic timbres grow out of the<br>
> timbres being produced by the acoustic instruments.<br>
><br>
> However, I don't seem to be able to find any concrete information on<br>
> how, for instance, I might use CSound or other software to emulate<br>
> such techniques...<br>
<br>
</div>I'd suggest an environment agnostic learning approach to sound synthesis first. Tools/Instruments like CSound usually assume that you already know with what "recipe" you are going to create the sounds you have in mind, and they provide the necessary tools for you to achieve them. The Computer Music Tutorial by Curtis Roads, although quite thorough, will be an excellent resource if you are serious about getting your hands dirty with electronic sound generation and manipulation in general. You can experiment with the concepts as you go, in an environment of your own choosing. You may start by trying things out with regular software synthesizers and work your way up from there by building your own sound synthesizers (if need arises) in a musical programming language (with a clear image in mind, of what to expect).<br>
<br>
Since Max, PD and CSound are mentioned, I should add, you may want to look into SuperCollider too. But please be aware that these environments are only tools/instruments and being able to create interesting experiences with them (easily and comfortably) is not something that will happen overnight. :)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<font color="#888888">Batuhan Bozkurt<br>
/* <a href="http://www.earslap.com" target="_blank">http://www.earslap.com</a> */<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Feb 23, 2010, at 11:22 PM, David Powers wrote:<br>
<br>
> These answers are interesting, and do suggest one possible approach,<br>
> which seems to be to let the electronic timbres grow out of the<br>
> timbres being produced by the acoustic instruments.<br>
><br>
> However, I don't seem to be able to find any concrete information on<br>
> how, for instance, I might use CSound or other software to emulate<br>
> such techniques...<br>
><br>
> CSound is itself a monster of a program to learn, so anything that<br>
> might point me towards useful techniques might be useful--I can<br>
> produce basic sounds but I'm not fully sure how to create a workflow<br>
> and actually compose with it. Creating instruments that respond to<br>
> MIDI does look somewhat promising, and I suppose I could go as far as<br>
> creating an instrument for each electronic sound I wish to create, and<br>
> simply trigger as needed.<br>
><br>
> I sometimes feel like despite all the advances done with electronic<br>
> music tools, it is extremely time consuming to do anything nontrivial,<br>
> involving many hours of set up; whereas I can write something<br>
> extremely intricate for, say, violin and piano, and get the most<br>
> incredible palette of sounds by writing a few notes on a piece of<br>
> paper. I don't understand why it should be so inherently hard to<br>
> create anything "musical" with electronic means??? I don't feel the<br>
> need to build my own piano and violin to write for piano and violin,<br>
> yet I feel like that is what I'm being required to do to compose<br>
> electronic music.<br>
><br>
> One side note, is that for the first run of things, I'm only making a<br>
> recording... so I don't need things to work in realtime per-se, they<br>
> just need to be able to be aligned with a score. I will also probably<br>
> use MIDI for the piano part, since I don't have the means to record a<br>
> proper piano right now, so that gives me some additional flexibility.<br>
> I'm hoping what I learn could eventually be extended to actual live<br>
> performances with acoustic instruments, but I don't have to get all<br>
> the way there in one leap.<br>
><br>
> I currently don't have any way to access either JSTOR to get articles,<br>
> or the scores of the works mentioned, although the Avant Garde Project<br>
> at least has Subotnick audio files, which I'm downloading this very<br>
> minute.<br>
><br>
> It is unfortunate that despite the supposed open access to information<br>
> provide by the internet, much of the good stuff is locked away and<br>
> only accessible to university students and faculty, unless one has a<br>
> fair amount of disposable income. In the last year this problem has<br>
> been hampering me more and more, to the point where I am considering<br>
> enrolling in university courses simply to afford access to research...<br>
><br>
> ~David<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Steven Ricks <<a href="mailto:stevericksmusic@gmail.com">stevericksmusic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> I think Mario Davidovsky's Synchronisms are essential pieces if you're<br>
>> interested in a "traditional" approach to composing for traditional Western<br>
>> acoustic instruments plus electronics. All of them include scores which<br>
>> become increasingly more specific in terms of notating what the electronics<br>
>> are doing and how the live instrument syncs up with them.<br>
>><br>
>> I apologize if I've misunderstood your question and these works are known to<br>
>> you. Anyway, in an an interview with guitarist David Starobin, Davidovsky<br>
>> says something to the effect of wanting to imbed the sound of the guitar (or<br>
>> whatever instrument he's dealing with) into the electronics, and vice<br>
>> versa. It's an approach in which the sounds/timbres of the two mediums are<br>
>> meant to dovetail and be closely related, at least much of the time.<br>
>><br>
>> SR<br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Randal Davis <<a href="mailto:randal_davis@operamail.com">randal_davis@operamail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> David,<br>
>>><br>
>>> You might start by looking into Morton Subotnick's "ghost scores." You<br>
>>> can find some program and technical notes on his website, recordings and<br>
>>> additional texts at the Avant Garde Project site, and a good article from<br>
>>> some years back in The Musical Quarterly (requires JSTOR access).<br>
>>><br>
>>> I'd look particularly closely at the works in The Double Life of<br>
>>> Amphibians, which include works for solo cello, solo voice and string<br>
>>> quartet (all with electronic "ghost scores."<br>
>>><br>
>>> RD<br>
>>><br>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>>> From: "David Powers" <<a href="mailto:cyborgk@gmail.com">cyborgk@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> To: <a href="mailto:microsound@microsound.org">microsound@microsound.org</a><br>
>>>> Subject: [microsound] Electroacoustic techniques<br>
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:03:26 -0600<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Greetings,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> For a new project (actually Pi Day), I have decided to take a<br>
>>>> different route and compose my piece in a more traditional manner,<br>
>>>> basically as a piano piece, and then add in electronic elements, some<br>
>>>> of which will probably be based on probabilities and some more or less<br>
>>>> notated.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> So with that being said, in my mind the great weakness in the classic<br>
>>>> books for electronic techniques that I've read ('Formalized Music' and<br>
>>>> 'Microsound') is that, in my opinion, they fail to bridge the gap<br>
>>>> between the world of composing as I know it, and new ways of<br>
>>>> approaching sound. I am not interested in discarding traditional<br>
>>>> techniques but rather extending them.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> So, I would be interested to hear from composers who work with<br>
>>>> traditional musical materials and instruments alongside electronic,<br>
>>>> especially those who use "normal" notation, manipulate cells and<br>
>>>> motives, and do not rely on improvisation for the performance of the<br>
>>>> electronic elements. How do you approach the use of electronics in<br>
>>>> your work? How do you bridge the gap in sound between the electronic<br>
>>>> and acoustic elements in your piece? Any software and technology that<br>
>>>> you find to be especially helpful? If you work on micro timescales,<br>
>>>> how do you bridge the gap between that timescale and the more normal<br>
>>>> timescale of notated music?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I'm considering finally digging into CSound to do the current piece;<br>
>>>> the other options that occur to me offhand are ChucK, for the Physical<br>
>>>> Modeling code, and PD, which I know reasonably well but usually only<br>
>>>> use to generate data which I send via MIDI or OSC elsewhere. Any<br>
>>>> advice would be appreciated.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ~David<br>
>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
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>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
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>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Steven Ricks<br>
>> Composer<br>
>> Associate Professor, BYU School of Music<br>
>> (801) 422-6115<br>
>> <a href="http://www.stevericks.com" target="_blank">www.stevericks.com</a><br>
>><br>
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>><br>
>><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Steven Ricks<br>Composer<br>Associate Professor, BYU School of Music<br>(801) 422-6115<br><a href="http://www.stevericks.com">www.stevericks.com</a><br>