<div>There is a good text by Boulez that touches on this: "A la limite du pays fertile", published in the book "Relevés d'apprenti". The english version of the book is called "Stocktakings of an apprenticeship".</div>
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<div>The problem is one of precision. Trying to compose in a traditional way on the computer requires absolute precision (of intent, of process, of anything that is measurable) and that in turn requires a level of detail that is automatically understood when you notate for a traditional instrument--plus the traditional instrument has a richer spectrum and modes of play that are difficult to achieve on a computer without a lot of preparatory work. It is far easier to notate a ppp col legno or sul tasto in a score than it is to prepare the samples or physical models that give you the same result. You could argue that you can prepare a whole library of sound samples or build a suite of generators in your favorite synthesis program; I find that getting them to sound "organic" and to avoid a certain "sameness" takes a lot of effort, on top of building the library and tweaking the generators.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I did use csound in one of my pieces, however 1) I only used the analysis/resynthesis capabilities and 2) I used acoustic sounds as source material. The rationale was precisely to avoid getting bogged down in the details of trying to get the organic character through purely synthetic sounds. The piece is "Menons klagen um Diotima", if you're curious to check the end result (link on my signature).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hope this helps,</div>
<div>//p<br><a href="http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0">http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0</a><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:22 PM, David Powers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cyborgk@gmail.com">cyborgk@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">These answers are interesting, and do suggest one possible approach,<br>which seems to be to let the electronic timbres grow out of the<br>
timbres being produced by the acoustic instruments.<br><br>However, I don't seem to be able to find any concrete information on<br>how, for instance, I might use CSound or other software to emulate<br>such techniques...<br>
<br>CSound is itself a monster of a program to learn, so anything that<br>might point me towards useful techniques might be useful--I can<br>produce basic sounds but I'm not fully sure how to create a workflow<br>and actually compose with it. Creating instruments that respond to<br>
MIDI does look somewhat promising, and I suppose I could go as far as<br>creating an instrument for each electronic sound I wish to create, and<br>simply trigger as needed.<br><br>I sometimes feel like despite all the advances done with electronic<br>
music tools, it is extremely time consuming to do anything nontrivial,<br>involving many hours of set up; whereas I can write something<br>extremely intricate for, say, violin and piano, and get the most<br>incredible palette of sounds by writing a few notes on a piece of<br>
paper. I don't understand why it should be so inherently hard to<br>create anything "musical" with electronic means??? I don't feel the<br>need to build my own piano and violin to write for piano and violin,<br>
yet I feel like that is what I'm being required to do to compose<br>electronic music.<br><br>One side note, is that for the first run of things, I'm only making a<br>recording... so I don't need things to work in realtime per-se, they<br>
just need to be able to be aligned with a score. I will also probably<br>use MIDI for the piano part, since I don't have the means to record a<br>proper piano right now, so that gives me some additional flexibility.<br>
I'm hoping what I learn could eventually be extended to actual live<br>performances with acoustic instruments, but I don't have to get all<br>the way there in one leap.<br><br>I currently don't have any way to access either JSTOR to get articles,<br>
or the scores of the works mentioned, although the Avant Garde Project<br>at least has Subotnick audio files, which I'm downloading this very<br>minute.<br><br>It is unfortunate that despite the supposed open access to information<br>
provide by the internet, much of the good stuff is locked away and<br>only accessible to university students and faculty, unless one has a<br>fair amount of disposable income. In the last year this problem has<br>been hampering me more and more, to the point where I am considering<br>
enrolling in university courses simply to afford access to research...<br><font color="#888888"><br>~David<br></font>
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<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br>On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Steven Ricks <<a href="mailto:stevericksmusic@gmail.com">stevericksmusic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> I think Mario Davidovsky's Synchronisms are essential pieces if you're<br>
> interested in a "traditional" approach to composing for traditional Western<br>> acoustic instruments plus electronics. All of them include scores which<br>> become increasingly more specific in terms of notating what the electronics<br>
> are doing and how the live instrument syncs up with them.<br>><br>> I apologize if I've misunderstood your question and these works are known to<br>> you. Anyway, in an an interview with guitarist David Starobin, Davidovsky<br>
> says something to the effect of wanting to imbed the sound of the guitar (or<br>> whatever instrument he's dealing with) into the electronics, and vice<br>> versa. It's an approach in which the sounds/timbres of the two mediums are<br>
> meant to dovetail and be closely related, at least much of the time.<br>><br>> SR<br>><br>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Randal Davis <<a href="mailto:randal_davis@operamail.com">randal_davis@operamail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>>><br>>> David,<br>>><br>>> You might start by looking into Morton Subotnick's "ghost scores." You<br>>> can find some program and technical notes on his website, recordings and<br>
>> additional texts at the Avant Garde Project site, and a good article from<br>>> some years back in The Musical Quarterly (requires JSTOR access).<br>>><br>>> I'd look particularly closely at the works in The Double Life of<br>
>> Amphibians, which include works for solo cello, solo voice and string<br>>> quartet (all with electronic "ghost scores."<br>>><br>>> RD<br>>><br>>> > ----- Original Message -----<br>
>> > From: "David Powers" <<a href="mailto:cyborgk@gmail.com">cyborgk@gmail.com</a>><br>>> > To: <a href="mailto:microsound@microsound.org">microsound@microsound.org</a><br>>> > Subject: [microsound] Electroacoustic techniques<br>
>> > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:03:26 -0600<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> > Greetings,<br>>> ><br>>> > For a new project (actually Pi Day), I have decided to take a<br>>> > different route and compose my piece in a more traditional manner,<br>
>> > basically as a piano piece, and then add in electronic elements, some<br>>> > of which will probably be based on probabilities and some more or less<br>>> > notated.<br>>> ><br>>> > So with that being said, in my mind the great weakness in the classic<br>
>> > books for electronic techniques that I've read ('Formalized Music' and<br>>> > 'Microsound') is that, in my opinion, they fail to bridge the gap<br>>> > between the world of composing as I know it, and new ways of<br>
>> > approaching sound. I am not interested in discarding traditional<br>>> > techniques but rather extending them.<br>>> ><br>>> > So, I would be interested to hear from composers who work with<br>
>> > traditional musical materials and instruments alongside electronic,<br>>> > especially those who use "normal" notation, manipulate cells and<br>>> > motives, and do not rely on improvisation for the performance of the<br>
>> > electronic elements. How do you approach the use of electronics in<br>>> > your work? How do you bridge the gap in sound between the electronic<br>>> > and acoustic elements in your piece? Any software and technology that<br>
>> > you find to be especially helpful? If you work on micro timescales,<br>>> > how do you bridge the gap between that timescale and the more normal<br>>> > timescale of notated music?<br>>> ><br>
>> > I'm considering finally digging into CSound to do the current piece;<br>>> > the other options that occur to me offhand are ChucK, for the Physical<br>>> > Modeling code, and PD, which I know reasonably well but usually only<br>
>> > use to generate data which I send via MIDI or OSC elsewhere. Any<br>>> > advice would be appreciated.<br>>> ><br>>> > ~David<br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > microsound mailing list<br>>> > <a href="mailto:microsound@microsound.org">microsound@microsound.org</a><br>>> > <a href="http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound" target="_blank">http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound</a><br>
>><br>>> ><br>>><br>>><br>>> --<br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:<br>>> Download Opera 9 at <a href="http://www.opera.com/" target="_blank">http://www.opera.com</a><br>
>><br>>> Powered by Outblaze<br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> microsound mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:microsound@microsound.org">microsound@microsound.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound" target="_blank">http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound</a><br>><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> Steven Ricks<br>> Composer<br>> Associate Professor, BYU School of Music<br>
> (801) 422-6115<br>> <a href="http://www.stevericks.com/" target="_blank">www.stevericks.com</a><br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> microsound mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:microsound@microsound.org">microsound@microsound.org</a><br>
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