From thinksamuel at yahoo.com Mon May 2 13:59:12 2011 From: thinksamuel at yahoo.com (Samuel van ransbeeck) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [microsound] Anyone has ICMC 2009 proceedings? Message-ID: <567901.31635.qm@web34403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello I am looking for a paper from the ICMC 2009 but I cannot find the online version. I am looking for the For Jean-Claude: [re]Presenting Duet for One Pianist by Rob Hamilton. Can somebody send me a scanned version of the paper. I would be most grateful Samuel Van Ransbeeck -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From boris.klompus at gmail.com Mon May 2 14:38:02 2011 From: boris.klompus at gmail.com (Boris Klompus) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 14:38:02 -0400 Subject: [microsound] Events in the Balkans May 10-June 1st Message-ID: Hi all, I'm travelling through Czech, Slovakia, Hungry, Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Croatia, Austria, possibly Slovenia for about a month. No set timeline really. Wondering if any of you know of some events or places to check out while on the move? Thanks, Boris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From flemminglyst at gmail.com Wed May 4 04:23:25 2011 From: flemminglyst at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?eske_n=F8rholm?=) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 10:23:25 +0200 Subject: [microsound] audio analysis tools in max msp Message-ID: hi microsounders, i'm interested in finding realtime audio analysis tools for realtime soundscape/soundwalk processing with max msp. how can we make maxmsp know where in a stereo field a "soundobject" comes from? how can we separate one "sound-object" from the noise, without it being to rude(simple highpass, lowpass filtering)? is there a [cocktailpartyeffect~] object or something alike out there...? realtime seems to be the key issue (in my mind)? any ideas, links, etc are very welcome! cheers, eske worgw.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mj.pedersen at gmail.com Wed May 4 09:03:08 2011 From: mj.pedersen at gmail.com (Mark Pedersen) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 23:03:08 +1000 Subject: [microsound] audio analysis tools in max msp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hey eske, you can do a lot with Tristan Jehan's analyzer~ object - which is based in part on Miller Puckette's fiddle~ object it is not stereo, and it won't find a "sound-object" for you - but if you spend some time analysing a field recording and isolate the unique features of a sound - e.g. by looking beyond frequency filters to spectral features like noisiness, brightness and envelope features, you could then run two analyzer~ objects - one each for L & R - and then try to filter out whatever is not matching your target parameters and then measure the loudness in each channel. this is just a guess, and I'm sure there's much more knowledgeable folks who actually know what they're talking about. You may also want to look at IRCAM's gesture follower example patches that come as part of the free FTM package. Once example shows how to recognise voices using a Hidden Markov Model trained on MFCC's extracted from the sound samples. You could do the same thing to have a realtime system that can recognise the presence of a particular sound object. There's probably a fair bit of work to do in selecting audio features and training such a system. So, I reckon it's possible, but we're probably still waiting for someone to right [cocktailpartyeffect~] :-) regards, Mark On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, eske n?rholm wrote: > hi microsounders, > > i'm interested in finding realtime audio analysis tools for realtime > soundscape/soundwalk processing with max msp. > > how can we make maxmsp know where in a stereo field a "soundobject" comes > from? how can we separate one "sound-object" from > the noise, without it being to rude(simple highpass, lowpass filtering)? > > is there a [cocktailpartyeffect~] object or something alike out there...? > > realtime seems to be the key issue (in my mind)? > > any ideas, links, etc are very welcome! > > cheers, > eske > > worgw.org > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From news at ostrowski.info Thu May 5 13:25:10 2011 From: news at ostrowski.info (mattyo) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 13:25:10 -0400 Subject: [microsound] audio analysis tools in max msp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: these are two separate problems you're thinking about: recognition and filtering. There are a number of tools in the FTM package that do fairly detailed sound analysis -- the entire catArt package is basically about doing analyses on grains -- and with enough patience, it's not impossible to identify particular sounds out of a field, particularly if it has some nice attacks or periodicity that the background doesn't. that said, the difference between getting a computer to identify certain features that match a model and note that it's there is very different from actually extracting such a sound from a field. No one really understands how the cocktail party effect works, but it is a _very_ sophisticated function of our brains, An FFT is probably too blunt an instrument for the resynthesis of something like that, and my guess is that there are teams of geniuses funded by DARPA working on this for the surveillance industry -- i.e., nothing that's showing up in a max object anytime soon.... \M On May 4, 2011, at 9:03 AM, Mark Pedersen wrote: > hey eske, > > you can do a lot with Tristan Jehan's analyzer~ object - which is based in part on Miller Puckette's fiddle~ object > > it is not stereo, and it won't find a "sound-object" for you - but if you spend some time analysing a field recording and isolate the unique features of a sound - e.g. by looking beyond frequency filters to spectral features like noisiness, brightness and envelope features, you could then run two analyzer~ objects - one each for L & R - and then try to filter out whatever is not matching your target parameters and then measure the loudness in each channel. this is just a guess, and I'm sure there's much more knowledgeable folks who actually know what they're talking about. > > You may also want to look at IRCAM's gesture follower example patches that come as part of the free FTM package. Once example shows how to recognise voices using a Hidden Markov Model trained on MFCC's extracted from the sound samples. You could do the same thing to have a realtime system that can recognise the presence of a particular sound object. There's probably a fair bit of work to do in selecting audio features and training such a system. > > So, I reckon it's possible, but we're probably still waiting for someone to right [cocktailpartyeffect~] :-) > > regards, > > Mark > > > On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, eske n?rholm wrote: > hi microsounders, > > i'm interested in finding realtime audio analysis tools for realtime soundscape/soundwalk processing with max msp. > > how can we make maxmsp know where in a stereo field a "soundobject" comes from? how can we separate one "sound-object" from > the noise, without it being to rude(simple highpass, lowpass filtering)? > > is there a [cocktailpartyeffect~] object or something alike out there...? > > realtime seems to be the key issue (in my mind)? > > any ideas, links, etc are very welcome! > > cheers, > eske > > worgw.org > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From christopherjette at gmail.com Thu May 5 13:45:53 2011 From: christopherjette at gmail.com (christopher jette) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 10:45:53 -0700 Subject: [microsound] audio analysis tools in max msp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is catArt part of FTM? I don't see it listed separately on the maxobjects list. Cheers~ Christopher On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:25 AM, mattyo wrote: > object -- www.cj.lovelyweather.com christopherjette at gmail.com 617.869.3968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trond.lossius at bek.no Thu May 5 13:59:20 2011 From: trond.lossius at bek.no (Trond Lossius) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 19:59:20 +0200 Subject: [microsound] audio analysis tools in max msp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07A9A4FC-623C-47ED-B78A-06337F439236@bek.no> Hi, cataRT is using FTM and Gabor objects, but is distributed separately. http://imtr.ircam.fr/imtr/CataRT Best, Trond On May 5, 2011, at 7:45 PM, christopher jette wrote: > Is catArt part of FTM? I don't see it listed separately on the maxobjects list. > > Cheers~ > Christopher From kanimmo at gmail.com Thu May 5 15:59:06 2011 From: kanimmo at gmail.com (Kurt Nimmo) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 14:59:06 -0500 Subject: [microsound] the committee of sleep Message-ID: Runxt Life on iPhone generated the midi on this one. Used mostly samples and recent field recordings to fill things out in Ableton Live... http://fosel.bandcamp.com/album/the-committee-of-sleep From member at linkedin.com Fri May 6 13:50:32 2011 From: member at linkedin.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Marcos_Bernab=C3=A9_Serrano_tramite_LinkedIn?=) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 17:50:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [microsound] Entra nella mia rete su LinkedIn Message-ID: <1415836736.1350519.1304704232070.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed40.prod> LinkedIn ------------Marcos Bernab? Serrano ha chiesto di aggiungerti ai suoi collegamenti su LinkedIn: ------------------------------------------ Vorrei aggiungerti alla mia rete professionale su LinkedIn. Accetta l'invito di Marcos Bernab? Serrano http://www.linkedin.com/e/-fbh6zu-gndf7og2-1x/p9vrzHjzx0fKXeUppa6tsKNXIu03uT771AzYR8D/blk/I40263172_60/pmpxnSRJrSdvj4R5fnhv9ClRsDgZp6lQs6lzoQ5AomZIpn8_c3pvczsNcPoOc3h9bQh2oScMsScPbP4Pcj4Nc3wOe38LrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/ Visualizza il profilo di Marcos Bernab? Serrano http://www.linkedin.com/e/-fbh6zu-gndf7og2-1x/rsn/117089476/UoSa/ ------------------------------------------ -- (c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanimmo at gmail.com Sun May 8 17:45:16 2011 From: kanimmo at gmail.com (Kurt Nimmo) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 16:45:16 -0500 Subject: [microsound] analogy of the divided line Message-ID: More experiments with glitchized micro and not so micro-ized sounds: http://fosel.bandcamp.com/track/analogy-of-the-divided-line From list at isjtar.org Mon May 9 01:18:10 2011 From: list at isjtar.org (isjtar) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels In-Reply-To: References: <4D5DB7757B784ADCAD3F7923EEC8B057@audiobul6e8dab> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C@isjtar.org> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. > > David Newman > > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > > > > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 > To: David Newman > Cc: ; ambient; > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels > > No, I am not naive. > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. > > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. > > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. > > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. > > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. > > A ton of people in the industry download music. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: > >> Maya >> >> You are so naive >> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. >> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. >> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >> >> >> David Newman >> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> >> >> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >> To: David Newman >> Cc: ; ambient; >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. >> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. >> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. >> >> Just saying. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: >> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >>> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. >>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >>> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. >>> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. >>> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing for good. >>> >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. >>> >>> David Newman >>> >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> >>> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 >> > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 > > _______________________________________________ > microsound-announce mailing list > microsound-announce at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benreviug at yahoo.com Mon May 9 05:15:34 2011 From: benreviug at yahoo.com (guiver ben) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 02:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels In-Reply-To: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C@isjtar.org> Message-ID: <147358.34924.qm@web39302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ? promo from 128 kbps mp3's? --- On Mon, 5/9/11, isjtar wrote: From: isjtar Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels To: microsound at microsound.org Date: Monday, May 9, 2011, 6:18 AM personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. ? David Newman http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions http://www.audiobulb.com?| Audiobulb Records >?Exploratory music? ? From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 To: David Newman Cc: ; ambient; Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels No, I am not naive. I've been in the industry and I know how it is. You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. People do not share for an ego boost. ?They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. ?And they will buy the CD. ?If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. ?They *WILL* always buy. ?For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. ?However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. ?They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. ?I bet you've downloaded music before. ?You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. A ton of people in the industry download music. Sent from my iPhone On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: Maya ? You are so naive ? The artist has made the music over a course of years.?It is ambient music. ? He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. ? I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. ? But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. ? ? David Newman http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions http://www.audiobulb.com?| Audiobulb Records >?Exploratory music? ? From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 To: David Newman Cc: ; ambient; Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. ?At least it's good enough to be shared. ?If people dig it, they will buy it. ?There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. ?Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. Just saying. Sent from my iPhone On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: To the thoughtless idiots.... ? So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. ? http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm ? The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. ? So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. ? Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing for good. ? So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. ? David Newman http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions http://www.audiobulb.com?| Audiobulb Records >?Exploratory music? ? No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11_______________________________________________ microsound-announce mailing list microsound-announce at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffreymelton at gmail.com Mon May 9 11:20:21 2011 From: jeffreymelton at gmail.com (Jeffrey Melton) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 11:20:21 -0400 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) Message-ID: This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 > From: isjtar > To: microsound at microsound.org > Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless > idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels > Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) > > however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of > obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. > experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model > as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. > with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have > the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. > > then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you > not get some type of grant or a fundraising? > > > > > On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: > > > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. > > > > David Newman > > > > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > > > > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > > > > > > > > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] > > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 > > To: David Newman > > Cc: ; ambient; < > microsound-announce at microsound.nexthop.net> > > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of > small labels > > > > No, I am not naive. > > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. > > > > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately > planned to hurt you and specifically you only. > > > > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to > hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they > don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who > don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one > puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. > > > > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. > They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. > > > > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I > bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone > who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. > > > > A ton of people in the industry download music. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" > wrote: > > > >> Maya > >> > >> You are so naive > >> > >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient > music. > >> > >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to > invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. > >> > >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I > work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main > job. I do it out of love for the music. > >> > >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I > go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get > forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. > >> > >> > >> David Newman > >> > >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > >> > >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] > >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 > >> To: David Newman > >> Cc: ; ambient; < > microsound-announce at microsound.nexthop.net> > >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of > small labels > >> > >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. > >> > >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use > this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient > music. > >> > >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're > involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making > music for the sake of art/the love of it. > >> > >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At > least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. > There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. > >> > >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing > sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day > and age allows them to do so. > >> > >> Just saying. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" > wrote: > >> > >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... > >>> > >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing > Beggar. > >>> > >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm > >>> > >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo > list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music > and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform > there is. > >>> > >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on > postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get > recouped. > >>> > >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record > small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these > and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing > for good. > >>> > >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who > has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever > you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. > >>> > >>> David Newman > >>> > >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > >>> > >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > >>> > >>> > >> > >> No virus found in this message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 > >> > > > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound-announce mailing list > > microsound-announce at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20110509/e320adef/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > End of microsound Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 > ***************************************** > -- jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 3str0g3n at gmail.com Mon May 9 11:36:12 2011 From: 3str0g3n at gmail.com (3str0g3n at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 08:36:12 -0700 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: > This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with > differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making > art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting > paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate > discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). > Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we > must make. > > > If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the > weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and > promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out > physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via > Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of > thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those > determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book > scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). > > > Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the > previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential > revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent > copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience > with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. > > > If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a > crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your > upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if > people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment > of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music > on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on > cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of > listening. > > > There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and > self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's > difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the > shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because > people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider > myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take > the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 > album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, > number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A > release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the > amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for > a label than an artist. YMMV. > > Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: > >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >> From: isjtar >> To: microsound at microsound.org >> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >> >> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection >> of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model >> as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have >> the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >> >> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you >> not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >> >> >> >> >> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >> >> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >> > >> > David Newman >> > >> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> > >> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >> > To: David Newman >> > Cc: ; ambient; < >> microsound-announce at microsound.nexthop.net> >> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of >> small labels >> > >> > No, I am not naive. >> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >> > >> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately >> planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >> > >> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to >> hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they >> don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who >> don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one >> puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >> > >> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. >> They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >> > >> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I >> bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone >> who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >> > >> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" >> wrote: >> > >> >> Maya >> >> >> >> You are so naive >> >> >> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient >> music. >> >> >> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to >> invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >> >> >> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I >> work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main >> job. I do it out of love for the music. >> >> >> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I >> go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get >> forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >> >> >> >> >> >> David Newman >> >> >> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> >> >> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >> >> To: David Newman >> >> Cc: ; ambient; < >> microsound-announce at microsound.nexthop.net> >> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of >> small labels >> >> >> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >> >> >> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use >> this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient >> music. >> >> >> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're >> involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making >> music for the sake of art/the love of it. >> >> >> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At >> least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. >> There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >> >> >> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing >> sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day >> and age allows them to do so. >> >> >> >> Just saying. >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >> >>> >> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A >> Dancing Beggar. >> >>> >> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >> >>> >> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo >> list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music >> and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform >> there is. >> >>> >> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on >> postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get >> recouped. >> >>> >> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record >> small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these >> and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing >> for good. >> >>> >> >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who >> has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever >> you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. >> >>> >> >>> David Newman >> >>> >> >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> >>> >> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 >> >> >> > >> > No virus found in this message. >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > microsound-announce mailing list >> > microsound-announce at microsound.org >> > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20110509/e320adef/attachment.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> >> End of microsound Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 >> ***************************************** >> > > > > -- > jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From list at isjtar.org Mon May 9 11:52:08 2011 From: list at isjtar.org (isjtar) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 17:52:08 +0200 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively. sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system. it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great. I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this. if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does. isjtar PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: > Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: > This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. > > If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). > > Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. > > If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. > > There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. > > Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 > From: isjtar > To: microsound at microsound.org > Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless > idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels > Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) > > however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. > experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. > with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. > > then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? > > > > > On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: > > > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. > > > > David Newman > > > > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > > > > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > > > > > > > > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] > > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 > > To: David Newman > > Cc: ; ambient; > > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels > > > > No, I am not naive. > > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. > > > > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. > > > > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. > > > > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. > > > > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. > > > > A ton of people in the industry download music. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: > > > >> Maya > >> > >> You are so naive > >> > >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. > >> > >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. > >> > >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. > >> > >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. > >> > >> > >> David Newman > >> > >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > >> > >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] > >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 > >> To: David Newman > >> Cc: ; ambient; > >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels > >> > >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. > >> > >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. > >> > >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. > >> > >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. > >> > >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. > >> > >> Just saying. > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: > >> > >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... > >>> > >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. > >>> > >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm > >>> > >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. > >>> > >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. > >>> > >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing for good. > >>> > >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. > >>> > >>> David Newman > >>> > >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions > >>> > >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music > >>> > >>> > >> > >> No virus found in this message. > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 > >> > > > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound-announce mailing list > > microsound-announce at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > End of microsound Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 > ***************************************** > > > > -- > jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 3str0g3n at gmail.com Mon May 9 11:54:28 2011 From: 3str0g3n at gmail.com (3str0g3n at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 08:54:28 -0700 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> References: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> Message-ID: automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly. On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar wrote: > it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. > > where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of > transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. > the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of > production has gone up massively. > sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and > since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but > disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. > > then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more > importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. > I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my > fingers or when it's playing over my system. > it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from > consuming to producing at least I think is great. > > I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all > this. > if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. > > I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, > but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged > attention does. > > isjtar > > PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true > way of making and experiencing music, hehe. > and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! > > > On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: > > Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: > http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: > >> This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with >> differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making >> art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting >> paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate >> discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). >> Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we >> must make. >> >> If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the >> weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and >> promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out >> physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via >> Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of >> thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those >> determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book >> scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). >> >> Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the >> previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential >> revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent >> copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience >> with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. >> >> If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a >> crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize >> your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made >> if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater >> commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I >> listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider >> purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the >> experience of listening. >> >> There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and >> self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's >> difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the >> shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because >> people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider >> myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take >> the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 >> album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, >> number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A >> release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the >> amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for >> a label than an artist. YMMV. >> >> Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: >> >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >>> From: isjtar >>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >>> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>> >>> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >>> >>> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection >>> of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >>> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model >>> as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >>> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't >>> have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >>> >>> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can >>> you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >>> >>> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >>> > >>> > David Newman >>> > >>> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> > >>> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >>> > To: David Newman >>> > Cc: ; ambient; < >>> microsound-announce at microsound.nexthop.net> >>> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of >>> small labels >>> > >>> > No, I am not naive. >>> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >>> > >>> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately >>> planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >>> > >>> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people >>> to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they >>> don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who >>> don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one >>> puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >>> > >>> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. >>> They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >>> > >>> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I >>> bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone >>> who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >>> > >>> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Maya >>> >> >>> >> You are so naive >>> >> >>> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient >>> music. >>> >> >>> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to >>> invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >>> >> >>> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I >>> work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main >>> job. I do it out of love for the music. >>> >> >>> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I >>> go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get >>> forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> David Newman >>> >> >>> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> >> >>> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >>> >> To: David Newman >>> >> Cc: ; ambient; < >>> microsound-announce at microsound.nexthop.net> >>> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of >>> small labels >>> >> >>> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >>> >> >>> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people >>> use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about >>> ambient music. >>> >> >>> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're >>> involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making >>> music for the sake of art/the love of it. >>> >> >>> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At >>> least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. >>> There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >>> >> >>> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing >>> sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day >>> and age allows them to do so. >>> >> >>> >> Just saying. >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >>> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >>> >>> >>> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A >>> Dancing Beggar. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our >>> promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent >>> music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing >>> platform there is. >>> >>> >>> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent >>> on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get >>> recouped. >>> >>> >>> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record >>> small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these >>> and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing >>> for good. >>> >>> >>> >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who >>> has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever >>> you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. >>> >>> >>> >>> David Newman >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> No virus found in this message. >>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: >>> 05/06/11 >>> >> >>> > >>> > No virus found in this message. >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > microsound-announce mailing list >>> > microsound-announce at microsound.org >>> > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >>> http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20110509/e320adef/attachment.html >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >>> >>> End of microsound Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 >>> ***************************************** >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From list at isjtar.org Mon May 9 16:44:21 2011 From: list at isjtar.org (isjtar) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 22:44:21 +0200 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: References: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> Message-ID: <561D7A76-6702-44A0-BF6F-4CBAA5BEA4E9@isjtar.org> that's not all he said. On 09 May 2011, at 17:54, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: > automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly. > > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar wrote: > it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. > > where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. > the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively. > sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. > > then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. > I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system. > it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great. > > I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this. > if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. > > I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does. > > isjtar > > PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. > and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! > > > On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: > >> Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: >> This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. >> >> If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). >> >> Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. >> >> If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. >> >> There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. >> >> Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >> From: isjtar >> To: microsound at microsound.org >> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >> >> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >> >> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >> >> >> >> >> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >> >> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >> > >> > David Newman >> > >> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> > >> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >> > To: David Newman >> > Cc: ; ambient; >> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >> > >> > No, I am not naive. >> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >> > >> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >> > >> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >> > >> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >> > >> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >> > >> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: >> > >> >> Maya >> >> >> >> You are so naive >> >> >> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. >> >> >> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >> >> >> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. >> >> >> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >> >> >> >> >> >> David Newman >> >> >> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> >> >> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >> >> To: David Newman >> >> Cc: ; ambient; >> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >> >> >> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >> >> >> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. >> >> >> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. >> >> >> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >> >> >> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. >> >> >> >> Just saying. >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: >> >> >> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >> >>> >> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. >> >>> >> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >> >>> >> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. >> >>> >> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. >> >>> >> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing for good. >> >>> >> >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. >> >>> >> >>> David Newman >> >>> >> >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >> >>> >> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this message. >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 >> >> >> > >> > No virus found in this message. >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > microsound-announce mailing list >> > microsound-announce at microsound.org >> > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> >> End of microsound Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 >> ***************************************** >> >> >> >> -- >> jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From list at isjtar.org Mon May 9 16:46:14 2011 From: list at isjtar.org (isjtar) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 22:46:14 +0200 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: <561D7A76-6702-44A0-BF6F-4CBAA5BEA4E9@isjtar.org> References: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> <561D7A76-6702-44A0-BF6F-4CBAA5BEA4E9@isjtar.org> Message-ID: <9CA411BD-5A79-4458-BE05-13072C51C94B@isjtar.org> which doesn't mean I agree btw On 09 May 2011, at 22:44, isjtar wrote: > that's not all he said. > > > On 09 May 2011, at 17:54, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: > >> automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly. >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar wrote: >> it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. >> >> where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. >> the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively. >> sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. >> >> then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. >> I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system. >> it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great. >> >> I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this. >> if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. >> >> I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does. >> >> isjtar >> >> PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. >> and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! >> >> >> On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml >>> >>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: >>> This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. >>> >>> If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). >>> >>> Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. >>> >>> If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. >>> >>> There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. >>> >>> Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars >>> >>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >>> From: isjtar >>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >>> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>> >>> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >>> >>> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >>> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >>> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >>> >>> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >>> >>> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >>> > >>> > David Newman >>> > >>> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> > >>> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >>> > To: David Newman >>> > Cc: ; ambient; >>> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>> > >>> > No, I am not naive. >>> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >>> > >>> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >>> > >>> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >>> > >>> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >>> > >>> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >>> > >>> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: >>> > >>> >> Maya >>> >> >>> >> You are so naive >>> >> >>> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. >>> >> >>> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >>> >> >>> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. >>> >> >>> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> David Newman >>> >> >>> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> >> >>> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >>> >> To: David Newman >>> >> Cc: ; ambient; >>> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>> >> >>> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >>> >> >>> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. >>> >> >>> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. >>> >> >>> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >>> >> >>> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. >>> >> >>> >> Just saying. >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >>> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >>> >>> >>> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. >>> >>> >>> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. >>> >>> >>> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made 500 of these and if I don't get close to ?900 back I can see Audiobulb sinking/closing for good. >>> >>> >>> >>> So you may be thinking why am I ranting at you? Well I don't know who has done this - they hide behind stupid names in Fileshare etc - but whoever you are - you are selfish, thoughtless and stupid. >>> >>> >>> >>> David Newman >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> No virus found in this message. >>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> >> Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3621 - Release Date: 05/06/11 >>> >> >>> > >>> > No virus found in this message. >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> > Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3623 - Release Date: 05/07/11 >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > microsound-announce mailing list >>> > microsound-announce at microsound.org >>> > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >>> >>> End of microsound Digest, Vol 29, Issue 3 >>> ***************************************** >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> jeffrey melton | p.o.box 10231 | fort wayne, IN | 46851-0231 | USA >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.pallas at gmail.com Mon May 9 17:06:32 2011 From: ted.pallas at gmail.com (Ted Pallas) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 17:06:32 -0400 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: <9CA411BD-5A79-4458-BE05-13072C51C94B@isjtar.org> References: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> <561D7A76-6702-44A0-BF6F-4CBAA5BEA4E9@isjtar.org> <9CA411BD-5A79-4458-BE05-13072C51C94B@isjtar.org> Message-ID: <8210BD73-2DC2-41CB-8520-E069F2B4E56B@gmail.com> Wait it's not all Live and Dubstep? That explains why this list goes over my head. At the end of the day the choice to release a record from your Soho loft on a boutique label or from your camp outside Oakland cc'd to all get out is entirely in the hands of you (us!) the artist. An audience that ignores this is, at best, inconsiderate and at worst doing serious damage. All other discussion is secondary to the fact that the people who own the content set the terms, which is one of those "what it is"-type things. Ted Pallas Live Media Design Sandwich Construction Consultant cell - 516 286 9661 Pardon the typos, sent from my Casio SK-1 On May 9, 2011, at 4:46 PM, isjtar wrote: > which doesn't mean I agree btw > > On 09 May 2011, at 22:44, isjtar wrote: > >> that's not all he said. >> >> >> On 09 May 2011, at 17:54, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >> >>> automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly. >>> >>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar wrote: >>> it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. >>> >>> where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. >>> the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively. >>> sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. >>> >>> then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. >>> I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system. >>> it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great. >>> >>> I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this. >>> if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. >>> >>> I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does. >>> >>> isjtar >>> >>> PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. >>> and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! >>> >>> >>> On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: >>>> This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. >>>> >>>> If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). >>>> >>>> Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. >>>> >>>> If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. >>>> >>>> There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. >>>> >>>> Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >>>> From: isjtar >>>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>>> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >>>> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>> >>>> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >>>> >>>> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >>>> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >>>> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >>>> >>>> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >>>> >>>> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >>>> > >>>> > David Newman >>>> > >>>> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>>> > >>>> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>>> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >>>> > To: David Newman >>>> > Cc: ; ambient; >>>> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>> > >>>> > No, I am not naive. >>>> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >>>> > >>>> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >>>> > >>>> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >>>> > >>>> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >>>> > >>>> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >>>> > >>>> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Maya >>>> >> >>>> >> You are so naive >>>> >> >>>> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. >>>> >> >>>> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >>>> >> >>>> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. >>>> >> >>>> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> David Newman >>>> >> >>>> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>>> >> >>>> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>>> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >>>> >> To: David Newman >>>> >> Cc: ; ambient; >>>> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>> >> >>>> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >>>> >> >>>> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. >>>> >> >>>> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. >>>> >> >>>> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >>>> >> >>>> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. >>>> >> >>>> >> Just saying. >>>> >> >>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >> >>>> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made = > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From list at isjtar.org Mon May 9 17:11:23 2011 From: list at isjtar.org (isjtar) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 23:11:23 +0200 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: <8210BD73-2DC2-41CB-8520-E069F2B4E56B@gmail.com> References: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> <561D7A76-6702-44A0-BF6F-4CBAA5BEA4E9@isjtar.org> <9CA411BD-5A79-4458-BE05-13072C51C94B@isjtar.org> <8210BD73-2DC2-41CB-8520-E069F2B4E56B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <652F61ED-37AD-48F6-A000-2718C00E28FC@isjtar.org> On 09 May 2011, at 23:06, Ted Pallas wrote: > Wait it's not all Live and Dubstep? well luckily! > That explains why this list goes over my head. how exactly? > > At the end of the day the choice to release a record from your Soho loft on a boutique label or from your camp outside Oakland cc'd to all get out is entirely in the hands of you (us!) the artist. An audience that ignores this is, at best, inconsiderate and at worst doing serious damage. All other discussion is secondary to the fact that the people who own the content set the terms, which is one of those "what it is"-type things. true that > > Ted Pallas > Live Media Design > Sandwich Construction Consultant > cell - 516 286 9661 > > Pardon the typos, sent from my Casio SK-1 > > On May 9, 2011, at 4:46 PM, isjtar wrote: > >> which doesn't mean I agree btw >> >> On 09 May 2011, at 22:44, isjtar wrote: >> >>> that's not all he said. >>> >>> >>> On 09 May 2011, at 17:54, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>> automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly. >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar wrote: >>>> it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. >>>> >>>> where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. >>>> the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively. >>>> sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. >>>> >>>> then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. >>>> I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system. >>>> it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great. >>>> >>>> I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this. >>>> if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. >>>> >>>> I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does. >>>> >>>> isjtar >>>> >>>> PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. >>>> and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! >>>> >>>> >>>> On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: >>>>> This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. >>>>> >>>>> If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). >>>>> >>>>> Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. >>>>> >>>>> If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. >>>>> >>>>> There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. >>>>> >>>>> Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Message: 4 >>>>> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >>>>> From: isjtar >>>>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >>>>> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>>> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>>> >>>>> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >>>>> >>>>> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >>>>> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >>>>> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >>>>> >>>>> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >>>>> > >>>>> > David Newman >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>>>> > >>>>> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>>>> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >>>>> > To: David Newman >>>>> > Cc: ; ambient; >>>>> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>>> > >>>>> > No, I am not naive. >>>>> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >>>>> > >>>>> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >>>>> > >>>>> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >>>>> > >>>>> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >>>>> > >>>>> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >>>>> > >>>>> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >>>>> > >>>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>>> > >>>>> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Maya >>>>> >> >>>>> >> You are so naive >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> David Newman >>>>> >> >>>>> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>>>> >> >>>>> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>>>> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >>>>> >> To: David Newman >>>>> >> Cc: ; ambient; >>>>> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Just saying. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made = >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ted.pallas at gmail.com Mon May 9 17:17:26 2011 From: ted.pallas at gmail.com (Ted Pallas) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 17:17:26 -0400 Subject: [microsound] Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels (isjtar) In-Reply-To: <652F61ED-37AD-48F6-A000-2718C00E28FC@isjtar.org> References: <0F9D70BF-0B6F-4D63-AFA0-DF280B44CFE3@isjtar.org> <561D7A76-6702-44A0-BF6F-4CBAA5BEA4E9@isjtar.org> <9CA411BD-5A79-4458-BE05-13072C51C94B@isjtar.org> <8210BD73-2DC2-41CB-8520-E069F2B4E56B@gmail.com> <652F61ED-37AD-48F6-A000-2718C00E28FC@isjtar.org> Message-ID: My previous post contained 1 joke and 1 truism, from where I'm sitting. Which is which is your call, dear readers. Ted Pallas Live Media Design Sandwich Construction Consultant cell - 516 286 9661 Pardon the typos, sent from my Casio SK-1 On May 9, 2011, at 5:11 PM, isjtar wrote: > > On 09 May 2011, at 23:06, Ted Pallas wrote: > >> Wait it's not all Live and Dubstep? > well luckily! >> That explains why this list goes over my head. > how exactly? >> >> At the end of the day the choice to release a record from your Soho loft on a boutique label or from your camp outside Oakland cc'd to all get out is entirely in the hands of you (us!) the artist. An audience that ignores this is, at best, inconsiderate and at worst doing serious damage. All other discussion is secondary to the fact that the people who own the content set the terms, which is one of those "what it is"-type things. > true that > > >> >> Ted Pallas >> Live Media Design >> Sandwich Construction Consultant >> cell - 516 286 9661 >> >> Pardon the typos, sent from my Casio SK-1 >> >> On May 9, 2011, at 4:46 PM, isjtar wrote: >> >>> which doesn't mean I agree btw >>> >>> On 09 May 2011, at 22:44, isjtar wrote: >>> >>>> that's not all he said. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 09 May 2011, at 17:54, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> automatically assuming that downloads = lost sales is not a sufficient articulation that he's been affected directly. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:52 AM, isjtar wrote: >>>>> it's not a clich? if it affects him directly, he has hands-on experience. >>>>> >>>>> where it all boils down to here IMO is that we're still in a period of transformation of listening and purchasing habits of music. >>>>> the cost of production have been slashed to amazing extents, the rate of production has gone up massively. >>>>> sales have gone down, but they were always low for experimental music and since the physical medium is obsolete, brick and mortar shops are all but disappearing save for more dance-oriented vinyl stuff. >>>>> >>>>> then the problem we have is in the filtering and finding and more importantly the changing listening habits which do have a real impact. >>>>> I don't listen to music in the same way at all if i have the mouse at my fingers or when it's playing over my system. >>>>> it's a cultural challenge and will still take some time. the move from consuming to producing at least I think is great. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know if the perceived stasis in electronic music has to do with all this. >>>>> if anyone doesn't perceive this, please do show me. >>>>> >>>>> I function in a subsidized environment, so I'm in a luxury position maybe, but for me sales in terms of money don't bother me, the lack of prolonged attention does. >>>>> >>>>> isjtar >>>>> >>>>> PS people should perform instead of record/produce anyway, it's the true way of making and experiencing music, hehe. >>>>> and it's not about ableton live and dubstep dammit! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 09 May 2011, at 17:36, 3str0g3n at gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Only way the OP's post could be more cliche is by using this graph: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110411/16551713858/new-riaa-evidence-comes-to-light-is-there-nothing-file-sharing-cant-destroy.shtml >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Jeffrey Melton wrote: >>>>>> This thread touches on issues that many of us on here face, though with differing attitudes and emotions on what the best approach may be. Making art/music for-its-own-sake vs. making a living vs. getting heard vs. getting paid have all been on my mind for years. (BTW, I think this *is* appropriate discussion for this list as the halo activities around making music). Sometimes it's a lonely venture to produce, promote and love the music we must make. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it's the leaking that has you most upset, I'd recommend eliminating the weak links in the distribution and promotion chain: physical duplication and promo copies are typically where leaks occur. Consider not sending out physical promo/review copies but provide streaming-only versions via Bandcamp and/or Soundcloud (though these can be ripped as well. Rule of thumb: if it's digital, it's rip-able. Also, ANYTHING is copyable by those determined to do so -- just look at the vinyl/cassette rippers and book scanners. One person's sharing is another person's piracy). >>>>>> >>>>>> Better yet, consider any listener a potential reviewer and make the previews public. What we as a cottage industry may have lost in potential revenue we could gain in social capital and network effects. Some may resent copying, but being widely distributed may bring a release a larger audience with more potential connections/feedback/revenue. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it's the costs to produce a product that have you down, consider a crowd-funded approach for a project (e.g. Kickstarter.com) to minimize your upfront costs and ensure you have a paying audience (it only gets made if people commit their support, and they get more perks for greater commitment of support). Personally I wouldn't buy a physical CD since I listen to music on my computer and iOS devices, but I would consider purchasing a project on cassette or vinyl, both for it being unique and the experience of listening. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is such a glut of available music online (from free netlabels and self-publishers, file sharing and pirate sites and on and on), it's difficult to get heard let alone sold. Plus as stated already, the shelf-life of a new release is in hours, days and weeks any more, because people have such vast music libraries and attention is scarce. I'd consider myself flattered if I was ever pirated (though that probably doesn't take the sting out of it for you). For example, I worked for months on my 2010 album of ambient and minimal pieces to only ever sell ONE copy. For me, number of listens/likes/links has supplanted sales/revenue as goals. A release's carrying capacity isn't just in number of units moved but the amount of potential exposure. I realize the perspective may be different for a label than an artist. YMMV. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeffrey Melton aka nofi, The Silent Stars >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 1:18 AM, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Message: 4 >>>>>> Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:18:10 +0200 >>>>>> From: isjtar >>>>>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [microsound] [microsound-announce] (amb) Thoughtless >>>>>> idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>>>> Message-ID: <33BAF211-30A9-4F13-A10C-5FFC1FF6185C at isjtar.org> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>>>> >>>>>> personally, I don't spend money on music anymore (to listen to that is) >>>>>> >>>>>> however, if there would be a subscription service with a large selection of obscure stuff, I'd really dig that. >>>>>> experimental stuff with it's extreme highs and lows really fit this model as you don't take the same "risk" as buying an album. >>>>>> with some community features it would also help me find things, don't have the time anymore to be really "into it" if you know what I mean. >>>>>> >>>>>> then secondly, David, the amounts you're talking about are so low, can you not get some type of grant or a fundraising? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 08 May 2011, at 16:56, David Newman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > I have never illegally downloaded music - fact. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > David Newman >>>>>> > >>>>>> > http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>>>>> > >>>>>> > http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>>>>> > Sent: 08 May 2011 15:43 >>>>>> > To: David Newman >>>>>> > Cc: ; ambient; >>>>>> > Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>>>> > >>>>>> > No, I am not naive. >>>>>> > I've been in the industry and I know how it is. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You're taking this way too personally, as in the person deliberately planned to hurt you and specifically you only. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > People do not share for an ego boost. They share bc they want people to hear what they feel is great music. And they will buy the CD. If they don't buy today, they will tomorrow. They *WILL* always buy. For those who don't buy this release, they'll buy the next one. However, as long as one puts out quality, they'll always be able to sell it. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Do not think like a major label, bc look at the state they're all in. They cry and cry and still make cookie cutter crap. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > For the love of music, please get off your high horse and calm down. I bet you've downloaded music before. You cannot say you didn't, bc anyone who owns a computer and has a brain downloads music. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > A ton of people in the industry download music. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On May 7, 2011, at 12:08 PM, "David Newman" wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> Maya >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> You are so naive >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The artist has made the music over a course of years. It is ambient music. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> He has worked on his craft to the point where a label is prepared to invest in getting it made into a CD, promoted and sold. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I don't do this for the money - I do it for the love of the music. I work hours and hours and hours per week on it. As well as hold down my main job. I do it out of love for the music. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> But if I invest ?900 and don't receive a near break even return then I go out of business and the music is not released.... the smaller labels get forced out and we are left with myspace unsigned and the majors. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> David Newman >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> http://www.audiomoves.com | Audiomoves > Digital audio solutions >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> http://www.audiobulb.com | Audiobulb Records > Exploratory music >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> From: Maya R. Odinezenko [mailto:maya at elevatorium.org] >>>>>> >> Sent: 07 May 2011 16:11 >>>>>> >> To: David Newman >>>>>> >> Cc: ; ambient; >>>>>> >> Subject: Re: (amb) Thoughtless idiots who masquerade as supporters of small labels >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Honestly, I really wouldn't complain. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I know this will come off as harsh, but it really bothers me people use this list more for promoting their own stuff than just talking about ambient music. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> You're already investing in making music, but it sounds like you're involved more fir making some sort if cash flow as opposed to just making music for the sake of art/the love of it. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> If I were a musician, I'd be flattered my music was being shared. At least it's good enough to be shared. If people dig it, they will buy it. There are a ton of artists I invested in after I downloaded their stuff. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> The investment is there for you, don't blame file sharing for losing sales. Maybe people want to try before they buy, bc technology in this day and age allows them to do so. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Just saying. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On May 7, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "David Newman" wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> To the thoughtless idiots.... >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> So here I am 3 weeks from the release of a beautiful album by A Dancing Beggar. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> http://www.audiobulb.com/albums/AB036/AB036.htm >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> The album has been sent out as per usual to 120 reviewers on our promo list. One or more of these people who purport to support independent music and small labels has uploaded the album onto every file sharing platform there is. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> So it's out - people can help themselves for free. The ?200 I spent on postage won't get recouped, the ?750 I spent on making the CD won't get recouped. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Some people think it's easy balancing the books if you are a record small record company - I can tell you it is not. I only made = >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tubular.groaning at gmail.com Sat May 14 13:21:26 2011 From: tubular.groaning at gmail.com (intergalactic walrus) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 10:21:26 -0700 Subject: [microsound] the original MacPod Message-ID: Hi there-- I've been looking around for the original version of MacPod as I'm interested in working w/ older software in order to impose limitations on the soundscapes I make; granular synthesis is very interesting & I'd like to be able to try it on my old mac. I found this message from Phil Thomson while looking in the list: " http://www.sfu.ca/~pthomson/MacPod.zip Runs best in OS 9, but it's possible to run it in Classic mode. Seems to work with shorter sound files (< 1 min). I couldn't find a working download site so I put it up on my server. P" Does anyone have this or know where I might find a copy? I'm not looking for 2.0.4 or any of the newer versions, I want something that can run on an old Mac. thanks, -Alex From noreply+M181416810 at netlogmail.com Wed May 18 05:26:02 2011 From: noreply+M181416810 at netlogmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?QsOzcmdpYSBHaW56?=) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 09:26:02 +0000 Subject: [microsound] Get access to my pictures and more Message-ID: <7E.BC.21270.7AD83DD4@mail04> Hey, I have created a Netlog profile with my pictures, videos, blogs and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. You first need to register on Netlog! When you log in, you can create your own profile. Take a look: http://en.netlog.com/go/mailurl/-bT0xNzg3NTgyNTU0Jmw9MSZnbT0xMiZ1PSUyRmdvJTJGcmVnaXN0ZXIlMkZpZCUzRC1iV2xqY205emIzVnVaRUJ0YVdOeWIzTnZkVzVrTG05eVp3X18lMjZ1aWQlM0QxNjUwODU3MDc_ Cheers, B?rgia ---------------------------------------------------------------- Don't want to receive invitations from your friends anymore? http://en.netlog.com/go/mailurl/-bT0xNzg3NTgyNTU0Jmw9MiZnbT0xMiZ1PSUyRmdvJTJGbm9tYWlscyUyRmludml0ZSUyRmVtYWlsJTNELWJXbGpjbTl6YjNWdVpFQnRhV055YjNOdmRXNWtMbTl5WndfXyUyNmNvZGUlM0QxNTExMzg3OA__ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thinksamuel at yahoo.com Wed May 25 07:27:30 2011 From: thinksamuel at yahoo.com (Samuel van ransbeeck) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 04:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [microsound] score of Xenakis achoripsis in pdf? Message-ID: <405449.74130.qm@web34402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello I need to do a presentation about Xenakis's achorripsis but as I do not have the score I have to order it. However that will likely take two weeks or so to arrive and the presentation would be on monday. Anyone has a scan of the score? Thank you very much Samuel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Brian.Power at cso.ie Wed May 25 11:01:17 2011 From: Brian.Power at cso.ie (Brian.Power at cso.ie) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:01:17 +0100 Subject: [microsound] Brian Power is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 25/05/2011 and will not return until 30/05/2011. I will respond to your message when I return. -- Anyone interacting by standard email should be aware that there are risks involved in transmitting personal or sensitive information using this technology (as email generally is not a fully secure method of sending data). The information in this email, and any attachments transmitted with it, are confidential and are for the intended recipient only. If you receive this message in error, please notify us via postmaster at cso.ie. -- Ba ch?ir d??inne at? ag d?anamh idirghn?omha?ochta tr? r?omhphost caighde?nach a thuiscint go bhfuil priacail i gceist agus t? ag seachadadh faisn?ise pearsanta n? ?ogair leis an teicneola?ocht seo (mar nach modh ioml?n sl?n at? ann chun sonra? a chur ar aghaidh). T? an t-eolas at? san r-phost seo faoi r?n daingean, chomh maith le gach chomhad at? ceangailte leis. Is i gc?ir ?s?id an duine n? an ch?rais lena seoltar ? at? s?. M? faigheann t? an an r-phost seo tr? bhot?n, cuir sc?al chugainn chuig postmaster at cso.ie -- From muse at i8u.com Mon May 30 18:18:25 2011 From: muse at i8u.com (i8u) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 18:18:25 -0400 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music Message-ID: hi, a friend is doing research on people who use plants to make music, anyone has info on this and more specifically in the Montreal, Canada region? thx France -- i8u.com on Everest Records http://everestrecords.greedbag.com/buy/terrestre-0/ on ROOM40 Various-10 http://room40.org/store/various_10 on murmur records: Secrets of the lake / Foreign sun, remix http://www.weeld.net/index.html on DER: 29 PALMS http://www.dragonseyerecordings.com/catalogue-der/de5030.htm on and/oar: Michelangelo Antonioni Trilogy And Epilogue, compilation http://www.and-oar.org/pop_and_36.html on NVO 022: christophe charles / i8u unter den linden / und transit http://www.nonvisualobjects.com/label/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htheriault at gmail.com Mon May 30 18:22:41 2011 From: htheriault at gmail.com (Herb) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 19:22:41 -0300 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This comes to mind: http://vimeo.com/5583313 Regards, Herb On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 7:18 PM, i8u wrote: > hi, > > a friend is doing research on people who use plants to make music, > anyone has info on this and more specifically in the Montreal, Canada > region? > > thx > > France > > -- > i8u.com > > on Everest Records > http://everestrecords.greedbag.com/buy/terrestre-0/ > > on ROOM40 Various-10 > http://room40.org/store/various_10 > > on murmur records: Secrets of the lake / Foreign sun, remix > http://www.weeld.net/index.html > > on DER: 29 PALMS > http://www.dragonseyerecordings.com/catalogue-der/de5030.htm > > on and/oar: Michelangelo Antonioni Trilogy And Epilogue, compilation > http://www.and-oar.org/pop_and_36.html > > on? NVO 022:? christophe charles / i8u unter den linden / und transit > http://www.nonvisualobjects.com/label/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > From catsed at libero.it Mon May 30 18:32:23 2011 From: catsed at libero.it (nicola catalano) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 00:32:23 +0200 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >hi, > >a friend is doing research on people who use plants to make music, >anyone has info on this and more specifically in the Montreal, Canada region? > >thx > >France > michael prime springs to mind first... -- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | http://www.myspace.com/nicolacatalano | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | "battiti" daily radio programme (mon-fri 12:10 am-1:40 am, sat-sun 12:00 am-1:30 am) on rai radio3 :: third channel of italian broadcasting company playlists: http://www.battiti.rai.it/ podcast: http://www.battiti.rai.it/dl/radio3/programmi/PublishingBlock-96d966cc-70e1-4cc4-bac3-358241dd000d-podcast.html | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | columnist on: blow up (monthly) http://www.blowupmagazine.com | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | artistic co-director of international sound art meeting PX_piombinoeXperimenta http://www.piombinoexperimenta.it or http://www.myspace.com/piombinoexperimenta From simonroychristensen at gmail.com Mon May 30 18:35:17 2011 From: simonroychristensen at gmail.com (Simon Roy Christensen) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 00:35:17 +0200 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael Prime is worth checking out. Cage's 'Branches' / 'Child of Tree'. And Scenocosme's "akusmaflore" for example 2011/5/31 Herb > This comes to mind: > > http://vimeo.com/5583313 > > Regards, > > Herb > > On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 7:18 PM, i8u wrote: > > hi, > > > > a friend is doing research on people who use plants to make music, > > anyone has info on this and more specifically in the Montreal, Canada > > region? > > > > thx > > > > France > > > > -- > > i8u.com > > > > on Everest Records > > http://everestrecords.greedbag.com/buy/terrestre-0/ > > > > on ROOM40 Various-10 > > http://room40.org/store/various_10 > > > > on murmur records: Secrets of the lake / Foreign sun, remix > > http://www.weeld.net/index.html > > > > on DER: 29 PALMS > > http://www.dragonseyerecordings.com/catalogue-der/de5030.htm > > > > on and/oar: Michelangelo Antonioni Trilogy And Epilogue, compilation > > http://www.and-oar.org/pop_and_36.html > > > > on NVO 022: christophe charles / i8u unter den linden / und transit > > http://www.nonvisualobjects.com/label/ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From list at isjtar.org Mon May 30 19:09:33 2011 From: list at isjtar.org (isjtar) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 01:09:33 +0200 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87B7F6BB-E7B8-4F45-936C-80CF01F1F4B4@isjtar.org> i did some stuff with sunflowers, now working with beehives, as of yet nothing good enough to share : ) http://okno.be On 31 May 2011, at 00:18, i8u wrote: > hi, > > a friend is doing research on people who use plants to make music, > anyone has info on this and more specifically in the Montreal, Canada region? > > thx > > France > > -- > i8u.com > > on Everest Records > http://everestrecords.greedbag.com/buy/terrestre-0/ > > on ROOM40 Various-10 > http://room40.org/store/various_10 > > on murmur records: Secrets of the lake / Foreign sun, remix > http://www.weeld.net/index.html > > on DER: 29 PALMS > http://www.dragonseyerecordings.com/catalogue-der/de5030.htm > > on and/oar: Michelangelo Antonioni Trilogy And Epilogue, compilation > http://www.and-oar.org/pop_and_36.html > > on NVO 022: christophe charles / i8u unter den linden / und transit > http://www.nonvisualobjects.com/label/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mis at artengine.ca Mon May 30 20:15:53 2011 From: mis at artengine.ca (Michal Seta) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 20:15:53 -0400 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andrew Brouse. I think he is still in Montr?al, if not, he hangs out here often enough. ./MiS On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 6:18 PM, i8u wrote: > hi, > > a friend is doing research on people who use plants to make music, > anyone has info on this and more specifically in the Montreal, Canada > region? > > thx > > France > > -- > i8u.com > > on Everest Records > http://everestrecords.greedbag.com/buy/terrestre-0/ > > on ROOM40 Various-10 > http://room40.org/store/various_10 > > on murmur records: Secrets of the lake / Foreign sun, remix > http://www.weeld.net/index.html > > on DER: 29 PALMS > http://www.dragonseyerecordings.com/catalogue-der/de5030.htm > > on and/oar: Michelangelo Antonioni Trilogy And Epilogue, compilation > http://www.and-oar.org/pop_and_36.html > > on NVO 022: christophe charles / i8u unter den linden / und transit > http://www.nonvisualobjects.com/label/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at jaime-munarriz.jazztel.es Tue May 31 03:32:27 2011 From: mail at jaime-munarriz.jazztel.es (Jaime Munarriz Ortiz) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:32:27 +0200 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music Message-ID: <4DE4998B.3090302@jaime-munarriz.jazztel.es> well, Kim himself seems to use a lot of coffee, and that's a plant... :-) From d4l3d at inbox.com Tue May 31 04:20:42 2011 From: d4l3d at inbox.com (d4l3d) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 00:20:42 -0800 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music In-Reply-To: <4DE4998B.3090302@jaime-munarriz.jazztel.es> Message-ID: Similarly, I was wondering if Herb, an earlier poster, is a plant making music. > -----Original Message----- > From: mail at jaime-munarriz.jazztel.es > Sent: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:32:27 +0200 > To: microsound at microsound.org > Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music > > well, Kim himself seems to use a lot of coffee, and that's a plant... :-) > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From macdara at email.com Tue May 31 07:15:39 2011 From: macdara at email.com (Manannan Mac Lir) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 11:15:39 +0000 Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music Message-ID: <20110531111539.198760@gmx.com> Perhaps an interesting question is what music plants like or what the role of sound in plant world is. Most organic or inorganic matter was a plant at some time, including the plastic and metals in our computers so we are all making some form of plant music, particularly us cauliflower brains. ----- Original Message ----- From: d4l3d Sent: 05/31/11 09:20 AM To: microsound at microsound.org Subject: Re: [microsound] people who use plants to make music Similarly, I was wondering if Herb, an earlier poster, is a plant making music. > -----Original Message----- > From: mail at jaime-munarriz.jazztel.es > Sent: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:32:27 +0200 > To: microsound at microsound.org > Subject: [microsound] people who use plants to make music > > well, Kim himself seems to use a lot of coffee, and that's a plant... :-) > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: