From sethchrisman at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 16:24:10 2009
From: sethchrisman at gmail.com (Seth Chrisman)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:24:10 -0600
Subject: [microsound] CC licensed music repositories
In-Reply-To: <a6ac48e0909281543m128fb263o3a25b9159a4ba008@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6ac48e0909271012x7cc6f9ebpd77395a51d60a918@mail.gmail.com>
	<f1cc8a690909280352x7df874b1tf1704b77dbd068d3@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6ac48e0909281543m128fb263o3a25b9159a4ba008@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a28f0c5a0910011324p6c5580duce62220481a40e5e@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.earthmantra.com/

ambient netlabel, all releases CC.

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 4:43 PM, Ismael Valladolid Torres <
ivalladt at gmail.com> wrote:

> All answers damn useful! Thanks a lot!
>
> Cordially, Ismael
> --
> Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
>  <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt
>
> t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
> m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia
>
> Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
>      Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
>                         AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From heezenmusic at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 05:08:05 2009
From: heezenmusic at gmail.com (Raul Fuentes (Heezen))
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:08:05 +0200
Subject: [microsound] Fwd: [LAU] CC licensed music repositories
In-Reply-To: <d48bd1610910030205y29d4e15ag5fdd5decfd21228a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d48bd1610910030205y29d4e15ag5fdd5decfd21228a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d48bd1610910030208p4c0dcfa3hb56297e8db4185bf@mail.gmail.com>

some ambient and experimental CC mixtapes

http://www.thirteensongs.net/
http://audiotalaia.net/catalogue.htm (mixtapes and more)
http://www.mixotic.net/
http://rubored.wordpress.com/ or
http://12rec.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/boring-music-vol-6/#more-639

saludos!

-- 
/ra?l fuentes
www.heezenmusic.net



-- 
/ra?l
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From flemminglyst at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 18:20:58 2009
From: flemminglyst at gmail.com (flemming lyst)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 00:20:58 +0200
Subject: [microsound] venice next two weeks?
Message-ID: <6517a5220910031520m7a9d71eh60a7c0339c3ad7d3@mail.gmail.com>

anyone got any tips on microsoundish stuff going on in venice, (venezia,
italy) the next two weeks?

links to relevant websites etc...

thanks in advance...

cheers,
eske, denmark
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From catsed at libero.it  Sun Oct  4 03:48:59 2009
From: catsed at libero.it (nicola catalano)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 09:48:59 +0200
Subject: [microsound] venice next two weeks?
In-Reply-To: <6517a5220910031520m7a9d71eh60a7c0339c3ad7d3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6517a5220910031520m7a9d71eh60a7c0339c3ad7d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a06240800c6ee0360e5ee@[151.49.74.250]>

>anyone got any tips on microsoundish stuff going on in venice, 
>(venezia, italy) the next two weeks?
>
>links to relevant websites etc...
>
>thanks in advance...
>
>cheers,
>eske, denmark
>
>

don't know about microsoundish stuff, but more or less generalistic sites here:

http://www.comune.venezia.it
http://www.labiennale.org
http://www.teatrofondamentanuove.it/

cheers.
nic

-- 
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | | | | | | | |

http://www.myspace.com/nicolacatalano

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | | | | | | | |

"battiti"
daily radio programme (12:00 am-1:30 am) on rai radio3 ::
third channel of italian broadcasting company
playlists: http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/battiti/index.cfm
podcast: http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/podcast/lista.cfm?id=3030

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | | | | | | | |

columnist on:
blow up (monthly)
http://www.blowupmagazine.com

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 
| | | | | | | | | |

artistic co-director of international sound art meeting
PX_piombinoeXperimenta
http://www.piombinoexperimenta.it or
http://www.myspace.com/piombinoexperimenta


From ivalladt at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 04:34:45 2009
From: ivalladt at gmail.com (Ismael Valladolid Torres)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 10:34:45 +0200
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
Message-ID: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>

Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular spanish
blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that relationship
has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.

- Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art (as
if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways to
"measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can call
"artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were tricky
and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso, Miro,
Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real art.

- Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?

Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship between
Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician as
some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
mathematics.

Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.

Cordially, Ismael
-- 
Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
  <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt

t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia

Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
      Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
                         AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4

From batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com  Mon Oct  5 07:24:45 2009
From: batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com (Batuhan Bozkurt)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:24:45 +0300
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>

Hi Ismael, I think this is an interesting subject.

Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see  
how the article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and maybe  
than can provide a framework for the discussion.

In my opinion, the notion that integrating mathematics into music,  
makes the art form seem more difficult and incomprehensible for others  
is flawed. In this particular case, I think composing baroque music  
already "needs" know-how, and is difficult regardless of the inclusion  
of mathematics into it. It needs previous exposure, ear training,  
analysis, studies, experience, many stuff. One simply isn't born with  
it, and occasional listening just won't cut it for anyone except the  
extremely talented.

And the case is similar with mathematics. Here I must say that some of  
my favorite artists are mathematicians, architects, physicists,  
philosophers etc. (they don't necessarily have to do anything else) so  
I don't discriminate between the sides of an artificially constructed  
border which separates sciences and fine arts. I see nothing wrong  
with pursuing a mathematical integrity in a particular work or between  
a body of works, on various time scales; this is just another approach  
to artistic composition and the approaches are governed by personal  
preferences (i.e. what an individual thinks is worthy of taking  
inspiration from).

Mathematics is accessible to anyone, just like music. Taking  
inspiration from it, and using it as a basis of artistic work does not  
necessarily make things more difficult for anyone. It just might make  
it "look" difficult for those who are not interested enough in  
mathematics to study it in more depth. But the same situation is there  
even if there is no mathematics involved. Composing, (for example)  
baroque music might also look difficult to anyone who is not  
interested enough in studying the stylistic details of the era, this,  
in the same sense make things "look" difficult for others. Art doesn't  
come out of thin air, and everyone has their inspiration sources  
whether they are conscious about it or not. And approaching the  
analysis of ones work from different perspectives (mathematical,  
sociological etc.) would not hurt anyone I guess, I don't see a  
problem with that.

Because of this, judging the quality of artworks by means of the  
difficulty of production doesn't feel right for me, because difficulty  
of something is subjective, depends on the choices (and by effect  
training) of the individual. I see this also makes you feel  
uncomfortable but it seems that this uneasiness is there only for  
mathematics. Because I see that there is a little contradiction in  
what you've just said; you say that you prefer some other artists over  
Escher and some of your reasons for this preference includes "usage of  
color by those people is far more difficult therefore they produce  
real art". This is highly subjective territory. The works of Escher  
has its own difficulties and others have their own. I see no sensible  
way of comparing them objectively, there can only be preferences. And  
I personally feel closer to Escher's works not because I think he  
makes more "difficult and real art", but because the way he approaches  
to material, source, form and other things appeal more to me as an  
individual, I also care about similar stuff. That is my preference as  
an individual, but I can't say that Escher makes "real art" just  
because we care about similar things...

> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?

I'm pretty sure, mathematical integrity is not considered only for  
Bach's music. In my opinion, any time you analyze a work by using some  
sort of abstract thinking, logical reasoning and try to reduce the  
vast amount of musical information by grouping similarities etc. you  
are essentially doing some sorts of maths on it. I can only speculate  
about your question here, but in the case of Bach's music (and in the  
body of some other baroque music too), the mathematical integrity on  
some of the works tend to stand out more, because the creator of the  
particular work seems to be mainly inspired by abstract thinking.  
Sometimes you can really see that the artist tried to limit him/ 
herself to pursue a mathematical integrity in a particular work. One  
can approach analyzing, say, Escher's repetitive, self-similar tile  
based works by abstract thinking and it immediately becomes obvious  
what he tried to achieve, how he tried to be creative between the  
borders of self imposed limits for creating something. Similarly, one  
can also do the same while trying to analyze how Picasso dissects and  
reduces a form of something to its essentials, and might conclude that  
while there is some deterministic direction in how he tries to achieve  
the final form of something, his intentions are not directly guided by  
mathematical constructs. That would mean that he mainly relies on  
other inspirational sources (and/or self imposed limits for artistic  
expression) which might be obvious for someone who knows what he is  
really concerned about. It might be very easy to see it for someone,  
but really difficult for others who are not familiar with it.  
Essentially the same with how the integration of mathematics in  
analysis makes a work seem like for others.

That said, as a last note, I don't really believe that Bach was a  
hardcore mathematician in any sense, and relied primarily to that  
while creating his pieces. His ability to take really simple,  
seemingly natural mathematical constructs and use them in really  
efficient and striking ways astonishes me, and one can see that in  
some pieces he really tried to achieve a strict mathematical  
integrity. But most of those mathematical constructs are more or less  
common for the baroque era, I personally care about how he used them  
to create such beautiful music.

I haven't seen the paper you've mentioned, so I must say that, while  
looking for hidden patterns, little mathematical wits are fun and  
educating, but searching for very advanced stuff and attributing them  
to Bach's conscious compositional thinking model would be highly  
speculative in my opinion (thought I can't cite anything about this,  
I'm speculating). Those constructs might really be there, but after  
all, there must be a formal way of explaining why one likes a  
particular piece of music anyway (which probably will never be  
expressed with an elegant mathematical formula). As an example, one  
might be able to find "golden ratio" in effect in just about any  
artistic creation; but not all artists know what golden ratio is  
formally, it might be here and there, just because of exposure and  
familiarity. Similarly one might also analyze a Bach piece to death,  
to find advanced mathematical constructs that makes it sound  
beautiful, but finding them doesn't necessarily mean that the artist  
put them into the piece by making rigorous mathematical calculations  
consciously. Nonetheless, I think there is no problem in approaching  
analysis in that way unless the results of findings are attributed to  
the artist in that way.

Best,
Batuhan Bozkurt
/* http://www.earslap.com */




On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:

> Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular spanish
> blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
> mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that relationship
> has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.
>
> - Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art (as
> if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways to
> "measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can call
> "artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
> something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
> treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were tricky
> and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso, Miro,
> Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real art.
>
> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>
> Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship between
> Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician as
> some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
> relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
> mathematics.
>
> Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.
>
> Cordially, Ismael
> -- 
> Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
>  <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt
>
> t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
> m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia
>
> Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
>      Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
>                         AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound


From paulo.mouat at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 08:42:42 2009
From: paulo.mouat at gmail.com (Paulo Mouat)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:42:42 -0400
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
Message-ID: <424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>

Some of the relationships between math and music are covered here:
http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html

and here:
http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10916
http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11102

As usual, there's a lot more to each and composers and mathematicians went
beyond what's described in these books, but still it's good coverage of such
a broad topic.

//p
http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0
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From asalch at math.jhu.edu  Mon Oct  5 08:57:25 2009
From: asalch at math.jhu.edu (Andrew Salch)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:57:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
	<424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0910050845250.5946@chow.mat.jhu.edu>

I'm glad somebody has already posted a link to Dave Benson's excellent 
book.

It seems to be standard to mention the attempts of Cage and Xenakis to use 
some stochastic methods in their compositions. Of course there is a good 
deal of mathematics used in composition both before and after (and 
during/in between) those two; for example, a good deal of mathematics is 
necessary to understand serial music, probably most especially in Webern's 
work.

Tom Fiore maintains a page here:

http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~fiore/1/music.html

...with links to some interesing papers on music and mathematics. There's 
a little bit of discussion of Bach in the "Musical actions of dihedral 
groups" paper. Looking up the papers cited in those papers will get you 
even deeper into the subject; a fair bit has already been written about 
mathematical music theory.


On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Paulo Mouat wrote:

> Some of the relationships between math and music are covered here:
> http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html
>
> and here:
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10916
> http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11102
>
> As usual, there's a lot more to each and composers and mathematicians went
> beyond what's described in these books, but still it's good coverage of such
> a broad topic.
>
> //p
> http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0
>

From kochhw at netcologne.de  Mon Oct  5 09:46:36 2009
From: kochhw at netcologne.de (hans w. koch)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 15:46:36 +0200
Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re:  Bach and mathematics
Message-ID: <EAE958B0-DD56-4BC4-8905-EE198600D299@netcologne.de>

actually, if one looks close, bach is much more about symbols and  
numbers, than about mathematics.
he would e.g. put as many notes into a chorale prelude as was the sum  
of his names letters taken as numbers. etc.
what makes people think of mathematics is the structural clearness of  
his canons and fugues etc.
but, on the other hand he had quite a reputation in leipzig for  
playing very entertaining coffee house music with some friends.

whereas beethoven, who comes across so emotional, was known to  
carefully calculate his pieces on whatever was at hand, up to the point,
that once he used the window-shutters of his summer vacation residency  
to scribble calculations all over, which the owner of that residency  
sold for a good price
as a souvenir to some fans.

in renaissance, when they composed the most complicated canons, which  
sound so expressive and lush (e.g."missa prolationum" by ockhegem),  
the prevailing idea was
to compose for the greater glory of god. so some aspects of the  
composition were supposed to be only intelligble by god, while the  
other aspects remained accessible for human listening as well.

hans
www.hans-w-koch.net

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:24:45 +0300
From: Batuhan Bozkurt <batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com>
To: microsound at microsound.org
Subject: Re: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
Message-ID: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323 at batuhanbozkurt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Hi Ismael, I think this is an interesting subject.

Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see
how the article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and maybe
than can provide a framework for the discussion.

In my opinion, the notion that integrating mathematics into music,
makes the art form seem more difficult and incomprehensible for others
is flawed. In this particular case, I think composing baroque music
already "needs" know-how, and is difficult regardless of the inclusion
of mathematics into it. It needs previous exposure, ear training,
analysis, studies, experience, many stuff. One simply isn't born with
it, and occasional listening just won't cut it for anyone except the
extremely talented.

And the case is similar with mathematics. Here I must say that some of
my favorite artists are mathematicians, architects, physicists,
philosophers etc. (they don't necessarily have to do anything else) so
I don't discriminate between the sides of an artificially constructed
border which separates sciences and fine arts. I see nothing wrong
with pursuing a mathematical integrity in a particular work or between
a body of works, on various time scales; this is just another approach
to artistic composition and the approaches are governed by personal
preferences (i.e. what an individual thinks is worthy of taking
inspiration from).

Mathematics is accessible to anyone, just like music. Taking
inspiration from it, and using it as a basis of artistic work does not
necessarily make things more difficult for anyone. It just might make
it "look" difficult for those who are not interested enough in
mathematics to study it in more depth. But the same situation is there
even if there is no mathematics involved. Composing, (for example)
baroque music might also look difficult to anyone who is not
interested enough in studying the stylistic details of the era, this,
in the same sense make things "look" difficult for others. Art doesn't
come out of thin air, and everyone has their inspiration sources
whether they are conscious about it or not. And approaching the
analysis of ones work from different perspectives (mathematical,
sociological etc.) would not hurt anyone I guess, I don't see a
problem with that.

Because of this, judging the quality of artworks by means of the
difficulty of production doesn't feel right for me, because difficulty
of something is subjective, depends on the choices (and by effect
training) of the individual. I see this also makes you feel
uncomfortable but it seems that this uneasiness is there only for
mathematics. Because I see that there is a little contradiction in
what you've just said; you say that you prefer some other artists over
Escher and some of your reasons for this preference includes "usage of
color by those people is far more difficult therefore they produce
real art". This is highly subjective territory. The works of Escher
has its own difficulties and others have their own. I see no sensible
way of comparing them objectively, there can only be preferences. And
I personally feel closer to Escher's works not because I think he
makes more "difficult and real art", but because the way he approaches
to material, source, form and other things appeal more to me as an
individual, I also care about similar stuff. That is my preference as
an individual, but I can't say that Escher makes "real art" just
because we care about similar things...

> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?

I'm pretty sure, mathematical integrity is not considered only for
Bach's music. In my opinion, any time you analyze a work by using some
sort of abstract thinking, logical reasoning and try to reduce the
vast amount of musical information by grouping similarities etc. you
are essentially doing some sorts of maths on it. I can only speculate
about your question here, but in the case of Bach's music (and in the
body of some other baroque music too), the mathematical integrity on
some of the works tend to stand out more, because the creator of the
particular work seems to be mainly inspired by abstract thinking.
Sometimes you can really see that the artist tried to limit him/
herself to pursue a mathematical integrity in a particular work. One
can approach analyzing, say, Escher's repetitive, self-similar tile
based works by abstract thinking and it immediately becomes obvious
what he tried to achieve, how he tried to be creative between the
borders of self imposed limits for creating something. Similarly, one
can also do the same while trying to analyze how Picasso dissects and
reduces a form of something to its essentials, and might conclude that
while there is some deterministic direction in how he tries to achieve
the final form of something, his intentions are not directly guided by
mathematical constructs. That would mean that he mainly relies on
other inspirational sources (and/or self imposed limits for artistic
expression) which might be obvious for someone who knows what he is
really concerned about. It might be very easy to see it for someone,
but really difficult for others who are not familiar with it.
Essentially the same with how the integration of mathematics in
analysis makes a work seem like for others.

That said, as a last note, I don't really believe that Bach was a
hardcore mathematician in any sense, and relied primarily to that
while creating his pieces. His ability to take really simple,
seemingly natural mathematical constructs and use them in really
efficient and striking ways astonishes me, and one can see that in
some pieces he really tried to achieve a strict mathematical
integrity. But most of those mathematical constructs are more or less
common for the baroque era, I personally care about how he used them
to create such beautiful music.

I haven't seen the paper you've mentioned, so I must say that, while
looking for hidden patterns, little mathematical wits are fun and
educating, but searching for very advanced stuff and attributing them
to Bach's conscious compositional thinking model would be highly
speculative in my opinion (thought I can't cite anything about this,
I'm speculating). Those constructs might really be there, but after
all, there must be a formal way of explaining why one likes a
particular piece of music anyway (which probably will never be
expressed with an elegant mathematical formula). As an example, one
might be able to find "golden ratio" in effect in just about any
artistic creation; but not all artists know what golden ratio is
formally, it might be here and there, just because of exposure and
familiarity. Similarly one might also analyze a Bach piece to death,
to find advanced mathematical constructs that makes it sound
beautiful, but finding them doesn't necessarily mean that the artist
put them into the piece by making rigorous mathematical calculations
consciously. Nonetheless, I think there is no problem in approaching
analysis in that way unless the results of findings are attributed to
the artist in that way.

Best,
Batuhan Bozkurt
/* http://www.earslap.com */




On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:

> Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular spanish
> blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
> mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that relationship
> has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.
>
> - Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art (as
> if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways to
> "measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can call
> "artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
> something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
> treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were tricky
> and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso, Miro,
> Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real art.
>
> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>
> Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship between
> Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician as
> some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
> relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
> mathematics.
>
> Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.
>
> Cordially, Ismael
> -- 
> Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
> <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt
>
> t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
> m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia
>
> Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
>     Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
>                        AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound





From macdara at email.com  Mon Oct  5 12:01:36 2009
From: macdara at email.com (Manannan Mac Lir)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:01:36 -0500
Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
Message-ID: <20091005160136.9263DBE407E@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>

  ----- Original Message -----

  I think the question of what the quality of a number is is the
  interesting one. On this topic I am ignorant.


  From: "hans w. koch"
  To: microsound at microsound.org
  Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
  Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 15:46:36 +0200


  actually, if one looks close, bach is much more about symbols and
  numbers, than about mathematics.
  he would e.g. put as many notes into a chorale prelude as was the
  sum of his names letters taken as numbers. etc.
  what makes people think of mathematics is the structural clearness
  of his canons and fugues etc.
  but, on the other hand he had quite a reputation in leipzig for
  playing very entertaining coffee house music with some friends.

  whereas beethoven, who comes across so emotional, was known to
  carefully calculate his pieces on whatever was at hand, up to the
  point,
  that once he used the window-shutters of his summer vacation
  residency to scribble calculations all over, which the owner of
  that residency sold for a good price
  as a souvenir to some fans.

  in renaissance, when they composed the most complicated canons,
  which sound so expressive and lush (e.g."missa prolationum" by
  ockhegem), the prevailing idea was
  to compose for the greater glory of god. so some aspects of the
  composition were supposed to be only intelligble by god, while the
  other aspects remained accessible for human listening as well.

  hans
  www.hans-w-koch.net

  Message: 6
  Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:24:45 +0300
  From: Batuhan Bozkurt
  To: microsound at microsound.org
  Subject: Re: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
  Message-ID: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323 at batuhanbozkurt.com>
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

  Hi Ismael, I think this is an interesting subject.

  Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see
  how the article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and
  maybe
  than can provide a framework for the discussion.

  In my opinion, the notion that integrating mathematics into music,
  makes the art form seem more difficult and incomprehensible for
  others
  is flawed. In this particular case, I think composing baroque music
  already "needs" know-how, and is difficult regardless of the
  inclusion
  of mathematics into it. It needs previous exposure, ear training,
  analysis, studies, experience, many stuff. One simply isn't born with
  it, and occasional listening just won't cut it for anyone except the
  extremely talented.

  And the case is similar with mathematics. Here I must say that some
  of
  my favorite artists are mathematicians, architects, physicists,
  philosophers etc. (they don't necessarily have to do anything else)
  so
  I don't discriminate between the sides of an artificially constructed
  border which separates sciences and fine arts. I see nothing wrong
  with pursuing a mathematical integrity in a particular work or
  between
  a body of works, on various time scales; this is just another
  approach
  to artistic composition and the approaches are governed by personal
  preferences (i.e. what an individual thinks is worthy of taking
  inspiration from).

  Mathematics is accessible to anyone, just like music. Taking
  inspiration from it, and using it as a basis of artistic work does
  not
  necessarily make things more difficult for anyone. It just might make
  it "look" difficult for those who are not interested enough in
  mathematics to study it in more depth. But the same situation is
  there
  even if there is no mathematics involved. Composing, (for example)
  baroque music might also look difficult to anyone who is not
  interested enough in studying the stylistic details of the era, this,
  in the same sense make things "look" difficult for others. Art
  doesn't
  come out of thin air, and everyone has their inspiration sources
  whether they are conscious about it or not. And approaching the
  analysis of ones work from different perspectives (mathematical,
  sociological etc.) would not hurt anyone I guess, I don't see a
  problem with that.

  Because of this, judging the quality of artworks by means of the
  difficulty of production doesn't feel right for me, because
  difficulty
  of something is subjective, depends on the choices (and by effect
  training) of the individual. I see this also makes you feel
  uncomfortable but it seems that this uneasiness is there only for
  mathematics. Because I see that there is a little contradiction in
  what you've just said; you say that you prefer some other artists
  over
  Escher and some of your reasons for this preference includes "usage
  of
  color by those people is far more difficult therefore they produce
  real art". This is highly subjective territory. The works of Escher
  has its own difficulties and others have their own. I see no sensible
  way of comparing them objectively, there can only be preferences. And
  I personally feel closer to Escher's works not because I think he
  makes more "difficult and real art", but because the way he
  approaches
  to material, source, form and other things appeal more to me as an
  individual, I also care about similar stuff. That is my preference as
  an individual, but I can't say that Escher makes "real art" just
  because we care about similar things...

  > - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
  > repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
  > simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper
  science.
  > Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
  > Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which
  sure
  > also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated
  ones?

  I'm pretty sure, mathematical integrity is not considered only for
  Bach's music. In my opinion, any time you analyze a work by using
  some
  sort of abstract thinking, logical reasoning and try to reduce the
  vast amount of musical information by grouping similarities etc. you
  are essentially doing some sorts of maths on it. I can only speculate
  about your question here, but in the case of Bach's music (and in the
  body of some other baroque music too), the mathematical integrity on
  some of the works tend to stand out more, because the creator of the
  particular work seems to be mainly inspired by abstract thinking.
  Sometimes you can really see that the artist tried to limit him/
  herself to pursue a mathematical integrity in a particular work. One
  can approach analyzing, say, Escher's repetitive, self-similar tile
  based works by abstract thinking and it immediately becomes obvious
  what he tried to achieve, how he tried to be creative between the
  borders of self imposed limits for creating something. Similarly, one
  can also do the same while trying to analyze how Picasso dissects and
  reduces a form of something to its essentials, and might conclude
  that
  while there is some deterministic direction in how he tries to
  achieve
  the final form of something, his intentions are not directly guided
  by
  mathematical constructs. That would mean that he mainly relies on
  other inspirational sources (and/or self imposed limits for artistic
  expression) which might be obvious for someone who knows what he is
  really concerned about. It might be very easy to see it for someone,
  but really difficult for others who are not familiar with it.
  Essentially the same with how the integration of mathematics in
  analysis makes a work seem like for others.

  That said, as a last note, I don't really believe that Bach was a
  hardcore mathematician in any sense, and relied primarily to that
  while creating his pieces. His ability to take really simple,
  seemingly natural mathematical constructs and use them in really
  efficient and striking ways astonishes me, and one can see that in
  some pieces he really tried to achieve a strict mathematical
  integrity. But most of those mathematical constructs are more or less
  common for the baroque era, I personally care about how he used them
  to create such beautiful music.

  I haven't seen the paper you've mentioned, so I must say that, while
  looking for hidden patterns, little mathematical wits are fun and
  educating, but searching for very advanced stuff and attributing them
  to Bach's conscious compositional thinking model would be highly
  speculative in my opinion (thought I can't cite anything about this,
  I'm speculating). Those constructs might really be there, but after
  all, there must be a formal way of explaining why one likes a
  particular piece of music anyway (which probably will never be
  expressed with an elegant mathematical formula). As an example, one
  might be able to find "golden ratio" in effect in just about any
  artistic creation; but not all artists know what golden ratio is
  formally, it might be here and there, just because of exposure and
  familiarity. Similarly one might also analyze a Bach piece to death,
  to find advanced mathematical constructs that makes it sound
  beautiful, but finding them doesn't necessarily mean that the artist
  put them into the piece by making rigorous mathematical calculations
  consciously. Nonetheless, I think there is no problem in approaching
  analysis in that way unless the results of findings are attributed to
  the artist in that way.

  Best,
  Batuhan Bozkurt
  /* http://www.earslap.com */




  On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:

  > Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular
  spanish
  > blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
  > mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that
  relationship
  > has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.
  >
  > - Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art
  (as
  > if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways
  to
  > "measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can
  call
  > "artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
  > something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
  > treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were
  tricky
  > and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso,
  Miro,
  > Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real
  art.
  >
  > - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
  > repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
  > simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper
  science.
  > Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
  > Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which
  sure
  > also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated
  ones?
  >
  > Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship
  between
  > Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician
  as
  > some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
  > relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
  > mathematics.
  >
  > Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.
  >
  > Cordially, Ismael
  > -- Ismael Valladolid Torres Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
  > http://twitter.com/ivalladt
  >
  > t. 0034912519850 Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
  > m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo) http://groups.to/lamediahostia
  >
  > Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
  > Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
  > AIM/ICQ: 264472328 GnuPG key: DE721AF4
  > _______________________________________________
  > microsound mailing list
  > microsound at microsound.org
  > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound




  _______________________________________________
  microsound mailing list
  microsound at microsound.org
  http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound

-- 
An Excellent Credit Score is 750 
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

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From lea at jayls.com  Mon Oct  5 12:41:03 2009
From: lea at jayls.com (lea nicholson)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:41:03 +0100
Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <20091005160136.9263DBE407E@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20091005160136.9263DBE407E@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <C36BA094-600B-414C-A3DC-2D59A3AD9DF7@jayls.com>

I think really we would have to address the question "What is a  
number?" first. Obviously, Russell and Whiteheads "Principia  
Mathematica" comes to mind here.


On 5 Oct 2009, at 17:01, Manannan Mac Lir wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> I think the question of what the quality of a number is is the  
> interesting one. On this topic I am ignorant.
>
>
> From: "hans w. koch"
> To: microsound at microsound.org
> Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 15:46:36 +0200
>
>
> actually, if one looks close, bach is much more about symbols and
> numbers, than about mathematics.
> he would e.g. put as many notes into a chorale prelude as was the
> sum of his names letters taken as numbers. etc.
> what makes people think of mathematics is the structural clearness
> of his canons and fugues etc.
> but, on the other hand he had quite a reputation in leipzig for
> playing very entertaining coffee house music with some friends.
>
> whereas beethoven, who comes across so emotional, was known to
> carefully calculate his pieces on whatever was at hand, up to the
> point,
> that once he used the window-shutters of his summer vacation
> residency to scribble calculations all over, which the owner of
> that residency sold for a good price
> as a souvenir to some fans.
>
> in renaissance, when they composed the most complicated canons,
> which sound so expressive and lush (e.g."missa prolationum" by
> ockhegem), the prevailing idea was
> to compose for the greater glory of god. so some aspects of the
> composition were supposed to be only intelligble by god, while the
> other aspects remained accessible for human listening as well.
>
> hans
> www.hans-w-koch.net
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:24:45 +0300
> From: Batuhan Bozkurt
> To: microsound at microsound.org
> Subject: Re: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
> Message-ID: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323 at batuhanbozkurt.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Hi Ismael, I think this is an interesting subject.
>
> Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see
> how the article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and maybe
> than can provide a framework for the discussion.
>
> In my opinion, the notion that integrating mathematics into music,
> makes the art form seem more difficult and incomprehensible for others
> is flawed. In this particular case, I think composing baroque music
> already "needs" know-how, and is difficult regardless of the inclusion
> of mathematics into it. It needs previous exposure, ear training,
> analysis, studies, experience, many stuff. One simply isn't born with
> it, and occasional listening just won't cut it for anyone except the
> extremely talented.
>
> And the case is similar with mathematics. Here I must say that some of
> my favorite artists are mathematicians, architects, physicists,
> philosophers etc. (they don't necessarily have to do anything else) so
> I don't discriminate between the sides of an artificially constructed
> border which separates sciences and fine arts. I see nothing wrong
> with pursuing a mathematical integrity in a particular work or between
> a body of works, on various time scales; this is just another approach
> to artistic composition and the approaches are governed by personal
> preferences (i.e. what an individual thinks is worthy of taking
> inspiration from).
>
> Mathematics is accessible to anyone, just like music. Taking
> inspiration from it, and using it as a basis of artistic work does not
> necessarily make things more difficult for anyone. It just might make
> it "look" difficult for those who are not interested enough in
> mathematics to study it in more depth. But the same situation is there
> even if there is no mathematics involved. Composing, (for example)
> baroque music might also look difficult to anyone who is not
> interested enough in studying the stylistic details of the era, this,
> in the same sense make things "look" difficult for others. Art doesn't
> come out of thin air, and everyone has their inspiration sources
> whether they are conscious about it or not. And approaching the
> analysis of ones work from different perspectives (mathematical,
> sociological etc.) would not hurt anyone I guess, I don't see a
> problem with that.
>
> Because of this, judging the quality of artworks by means of the
> difficulty of production doesn't feel right for me, because difficulty
> of something is subjective, depends on the choices (and by effect
> training) of the individual. I see this also makes you feel
> uncomfortable but it seems that this uneasiness is there only for
> mathematics. Because I see that there is a little contradiction in
> what you've just said; you say that you prefer some other artists over
> Escher and some of your reasons for this preference includes "usage of
> color by those people is far more difficult therefore they produce
> real art". This is highly subjective territory. The works of Escher
> has its own difficulties and others have their own. I see no sensible
> way of comparing them objectively, there can only be preferences. And
> I personally feel closer to Escher's works not because I think he
> makes more "difficult and real art", but because the way he approaches
> to material, source, form and other things appeal more to me as an
> individual, I also care about similar stuff. That is my preference as
> an individual, but I can't say that Escher makes "real art" just
> because we care about similar things...
>
> > - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
> > repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
> > simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper  
> science.
> > Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
> > Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
> > also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>
> I'm pretty sure, mathematical integrity is not considered only for
> Bach's music. In my opinion, any time you analyze a work by using some
> sort of abstract thinking, logical reasoning and try to reduce the
> vast amount of musical information by grouping similarities etc. you
> are essentially doing some sorts of maths on it. I can only speculate
> about your question here, but in the case of Bach's music (and in the
> body of some other baroque music too), the mathematical integrity on
> some of the works tend to stand out more, because the creator of the
> particular work seems to be mainly inspired by abstract thinking.
> Sometimes you can really see that the artist tried to limit him/
> herself to pursue a mathematical integrity in a particular work. One
> can approach analyzing, say, Escher's repetitive, self-similar tile
> based works by abstract thinking and it immediately becomes obvious
> what he tried to achieve, how he tried to be creative between the
> borders of self imposed limits for creating something. Similarly, one
> can also do the same while trying to analyze how Picasso dissects and
> reduces a form of something to its essentials, and might conclude that
> while there is some deterministic direction in how he tries to achieve
> the final form of something, his intentions are not directly guided by
> mathematical constructs. That would mean that he mainly relies on
> other inspirational sources (and/or self imposed limits for artistic
> expression) which might be obvious for someone who knows what he is
> really concerned about. It might be very easy to see it for someone,
> but really difficult for others who are not familiar with it.
> Essentially the same with how the integration of mathematics in
> analysis makes a work seem like for others.
>
> That said, as a last note, I don't really believe that Bach was a
> hardcore mathematician in any sense, and relied primarily to that
> while creating his pieces. His ability to take really simple,
> seemingly natural mathematical constructs and use them in really
> efficient and striking ways astonishes me, and one can see that in
> some pieces he really tried to achieve a strict mathematical
> integrity. But most of those mathematical constructs are more or less
> common for the baroque era, I personally care about how he used them
> to create such beautiful music.
>
> I haven't seen the paper you've mentioned, so I must say that, while
> looking for hidden patterns, little mathematical wits are fun and
> educating, but searching for very advanced stuff and attributing them
> to Bach's conscious compositional thinking model would be highly
> speculative in my opinion (thought I can't cite anything about this,
> I'm speculating). Those constructs might really be there, but after
> all, there must be a formal way of explaining why one likes a
> particular piece of music anyway (which probably will never be
> expressed with an elegant mathematical formula). As an example, one
> might be able to find "golden ratio" in effect in just about any
> artistic creation; but not all artists know what golden ratio is
> formally, it might be here and there, just because of exposure and
> familiarity. Similarly one might also analyze a Bach piece to death,
> to find advanced mathematical constructs that makes it sound
> beautiful, but finding them doesn't necessarily mean that the artist
> put them into the piece by making rigorous mathematical calculations
> consciously. Nonetheless, I think there is no problem in approaching
> analysis in that way unless the results of findings are attributed to
> the artist in that way.
>
> Best,
> Batuhan Bozkurt
> /* http://www.earslap.com */
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
>
> > Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular  
> spanish
> > blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
> > mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that  
> relationship
> > has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.
> >
> > - Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art (as
> > if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways  
> to
> > "measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can  
> call
> > "artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
> > something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
> > treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were tricky
> > and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso, Miro,
> > Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real art.
> >
> > - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
> > repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
> > simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper  
> science.
> > Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
> > Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
> > also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
> >
> > Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship  
> between
> > Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician as
> > some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
> > relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
> > mathematics.
> >
> > Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.
> >
> > Cordially, Ismael
> > -- Ismael Valladolid Torres Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
> > http://twitter.com/ivalladt
> >
> > t. 0034912519850 Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
> > m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo) http://groups.to/lamediahostia
> >
> > Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
> > Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
> > AIM/ICQ: 264472328 GnuPG key: DE721AF4
> > _______________________________________________
> > microsound mailing list
> > microsound at microsound.org
> > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>
> --
> An Excellent Credit Score is 750
> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
> _______________________________________________
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From asalch at math.jhu.edu  Mon Oct  5 13:18:48 2009
From: asalch at math.jhu.edu (Andrew Salch)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:18:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <C36BA094-600B-414C-A3DC-2D59A3AD9DF7@jayls.com>
References: <20091005160136.9263DBE407E@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
	<C36BA094-600B-414C-A3DC-2D59A3AD9DF7@jayls.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0910051312130.11663@chow.mat.jhu.edu>

I think it's most useful, for musical purposes, to regard mathematics as 
the study of (particular kinds of) structure, not necessarily those 
related to numbers; in higher mathematics one certainly considers many 
kind of structure that don't necessarily relate in any clear way to any 
kind of numbers (for example, the semigroups which are used to model the 
way meaning is formed, in mathematical linguistics). A musical example: 
the mathematics we can use to classify all the transpositions of a row, in 
a piece of serial music, is much more about structure than it is 
specifically about number or numbers.

I think the questions about number and numbers are interesting but they 
might be sort of a red herring, if what we're really interested in is the 
application of mathematics to music.


On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, lea nicholson wrote:

> I think really we would have to address the question "What is a number?" 
> first. Obviously, Russell and Whiteheads "Principia Mathematica" comes to 
> mind here.
>
>
> On 5 Oct 2009, at 17:01, Manannan Mac Lir wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> 
>> I think the question of what the quality of a number is is the interesting 
>> one. On this topic I am ignorant.
>> 
>> 
>> From: "hans w. koch"
>> To: microsound at microsound.org
>> Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
>> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 15:46:36 +0200
>> 
>> 
>> actually, if one looks close, bach is much more about symbols and
>> numbers, than about mathematics.
>> he would e.g. put as many notes into a chorale prelude as was the
>> sum of his names letters taken as numbers. etc.
>> what makes people think of mathematics is the structural clearness
>> of his canons and fugues etc.
>> but, on the other hand he had quite a reputation in leipzig for
>> playing very entertaining coffee house music with some friends.
>> 
>> whereas beethoven, who comes across so emotional, was known to
>> carefully calculate his pieces on whatever was at hand, up to the
>> point,
>> that once he used the window-shutters of his summer vacation
>> residency to scribble calculations all over, which the owner of
>> that residency sold for a good price
>> as a souvenir to some fans.
>> 
>> in renaissance, when they composed the most complicated canons,
>> which sound so expressive and lush (e.g."missa prolationum" by
>> ockhegem), the prevailing idea was
>> to compose for the greater glory of god. so some aspects of the
>> composition were supposed to be only intelligble by god, while the
>> other aspects remained accessible for human listening as well.
>> 
>> hans
>> www.hans-w-koch.net
>> 
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:24:45 +0300
>> From: Batuhan Bozkurt
>> To: microsound at microsound.org
>> Subject: Re: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
>> Message-ID: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323 at batuhanbozkurt.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>> 
>> Hi Ismael, I think this is an interesting subject.
>> 
>> Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see
>> how the article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and maybe
>> than can provide a framework for the discussion.
>> 
>> In my opinion, the notion that integrating mathematics into music,
>> makes the art form seem more difficult and incomprehensible for others
>> is flawed. In this particular case, I think composing baroque music
>> already "needs" know-how, and is difficult regardless of the inclusion
>> of mathematics into it. It needs previous exposure, ear training,
>> analysis, studies, experience, many stuff. One simply isn't born with
>> it, and occasional listening just won't cut it for anyone except the
>> extremely talented.
>> 
>> And the case is similar with mathematics. Here I must say that some of
>> my favorite artists are mathematicians, architects, physicists,
>> philosophers etc. (they don't necessarily have to do anything else) so
>> I don't discriminate between the sides of an artificially constructed
>> border which separates sciences and fine arts. I see nothing wrong
>> with pursuing a mathematical integrity in a particular work or between
>> a body of works, on various time scales; this is just another approach
>> to artistic composition and the approaches are governed by personal
>> preferences (i.e. what an individual thinks is worthy of taking
>> inspiration from).
>> 
>> Mathematics is accessible to anyone, just like music. Taking
>> inspiration from it, and using it as a basis of artistic work does not
>> necessarily make things more difficult for anyone. It just might make
>> it "look" difficult for those who are not interested enough in
>> mathematics to study it in more depth. But the same situation is there
>> even if there is no mathematics involved. Composing, (for example)
>> baroque music might also look difficult to anyone who is not
>> interested enough in studying the stylistic details of the era, this,
>> in the same sense make things "look" difficult for others. Art doesn't
>> come out of thin air, and everyone has their inspiration sources
>> whether they are conscious about it or not. And approaching the
>> analysis of ones work from different perspectives (mathematical,
>> sociological etc.) would not hurt anyone I guess, I don't see a
>> problem with that.
>> 
>> Because of this, judging the quality of artworks by means of the
>> difficulty of production doesn't feel right for me, because difficulty
>> of something is subjective, depends on the choices (and by effect
>> training) of the individual. I see this also makes you feel
>> uncomfortable but it seems that this uneasiness is there only for
>> mathematics. Because I see that there is a little contradiction in
>> what you've just said; you say that you prefer some other artists over
>> Escher and some of your reasons for this preference includes "usage of
>> color by those people is far more difficult therefore they produce
>> real art". This is highly subjective territory. The works of Escher
>> has its own difficulties and others have their own. I see no sensible
>> way of comparing them objectively, there can only be preferences. And
>> I personally feel closer to Escher's works not because I think he
>> makes more "difficult and real art", but because the way he approaches
>> to material, source, form and other things appeal more to me as an
>> individual, I also care about similar stuff. That is my preference as
>> an individual, but I can't say that Escher makes "real art" just
>> because we care about similar things...
>> 
>>> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
>>> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
>>> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
>>> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
>>> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
>>> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure, mathematical integrity is not considered only for
>> Bach's music. In my opinion, any time you analyze a work by using some
>> sort of abstract thinking, logical reasoning and try to reduce the
>> vast amount of musical information by grouping similarities etc. you
>> are essentially doing some sorts of maths on it. I can only speculate
>> about your question here, but in the case of Bach's music (and in the
>> body of some other baroque music too), the mathematical integrity on
>> some of the works tend to stand out more, because the creator of the
>> particular work seems to be mainly inspired by abstract thinking.
>> Sometimes you can really see that the artist tried to limit him/
>> herself to pursue a mathematical integrity in a particular work. One
>> can approach analyzing, say, Escher's repetitive, self-similar tile
>> based works by abstract thinking and it immediately becomes obvious
>> what he tried to achieve, how he tried to be creative between the
>> borders of self imposed limits for creating something. Similarly, one
>> can also do the same while trying to analyze how Picasso dissects and
>> reduces a form of something to its essentials, and might conclude that
>> while there is some deterministic direction in how he tries to achieve
>> the final form of something, his intentions are not directly guided by
>> mathematical constructs. That would mean that he mainly relies on
>> other inspirational sources (and/or self imposed limits for artistic
>> expression) which might be obvious for someone who knows what he is
>> really concerned about. It might be very easy to see it for someone,
>> but really difficult for others who are not familiar with it.
>> Essentially the same with how the integration of mathematics in
>> analysis makes a work seem like for others.
>> 
>> That said, as a last note, I don't really believe that Bach was a
>> hardcore mathematician in any sense, and relied primarily to that
>> while creating his pieces. His ability to take really simple,
>> seemingly natural mathematical constructs and use them in really
>> efficient and striking ways astonishes me, and one can see that in
>> some pieces he really tried to achieve a strict mathematical
>> integrity. But most of those mathematical constructs are more or less
>> common for the baroque era, I personally care about how he used them
>> to create such beautiful music.
>> 
>> I haven't seen the paper you've mentioned, so I must say that, while
>> looking for hidden patterns, little mathematical wits are fun and
>> educating, but searching for very advanced stuff and attributing them
>> to Bach's conscious compositional thinking model would be highly
>> speculative in my opinion (thought I can't cite anything about this,
>> I'm speculating). Those constructs might really be there, but after
>> all, there must be a formal way of explaining why one likes a
>> particular piece of music anyway (which probably will never be
>> expressed with an elegant mathematical formula). As an example, one
>> might be able to find "golden ratio" in effect in just about any
>> artistic creation; but not all artists know what golden ratio is
>> formally, it might be here and there, just because of exposure and
>> familiarity. Similarly one might also analyze a Bach piece to death,
>> to find advanced mathematical constructs that makes it sound
>> beautiful, but finding them doesn't necessarily mean that the artist
>> put them into the piece by making rigorous mathematical calculations
>> consciously. Nonetheless, I think there is no problem in approaching
>> analysis in that way unless the results of findings are attributed to
>> the artist in that way.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Batuhan Bozkurt
>> /* http://www.earslap.com */
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
>> 
>>> Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular spanish
>>> blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
>>> mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that relationship
>>> has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.
>>> 
>>> - Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art (as
>>> if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways to
>>> "measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can call
>>> "artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
>>> something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
>>> treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were tricky
>>> and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso, Miro,
>>> Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real art.
>>> 
>>> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
>>> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
>>> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
>>> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
>>> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
>>> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>>> 
>>> Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship between
>>> Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician as
>>> some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
>>> relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
>>> mathematics.
>>> 
>>> Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>> Cordially, Ismael
>>> -- Ismael Valladolid Torres Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
>>> http://twitter.com/ivalladt
>>> 
>>> t. 0034912519850 Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
>>> m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo) http://groups.to/lamediahostia
>>> 
>>> Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
>>> Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
>>> AIM/ICQ: 264472328 GnuPG key: DE721AF4
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> microsound mailing list
>>> microsound at microsound.org
>>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound mailing list
>> microsound at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> An Excellent Credit Score is 750
>> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound mailing list
>> microsound at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>

From ionizing at gmail.com  Mon Oct  5 13:40:16 2009
From: ionizing at gmail.com (Robert Lewis)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:40:16 -0400
Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0910051312130.11663@chow.mat.jhu.edu>
References: <20091005160136.9263DBE407E@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
	<C36BA094-600B-414C-A3DC-2D59A3AD9DF7@jayls.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0910051312130.11663@chow.mat.jhu.edu>
Message-ID: <c82854ba0910051040g46332c11k45541a910c039495@mail.gmail.com>

This conversation reminds me of the book "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas
Hofstadter.  It is relevant enough to read if you are interested in this
sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach


On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Andrew Salch <asalch at math.jhu.edu> wrote:

> I think it's most useful, for musical purposes, to regard mathematics as
> the study of (particular kinds of) structure, not necessarily those related
> to numbers; in higher mathematics one certainly considers many kind of
> structure that don't necessarily relate in any clear way to any kind of
> numbers (for example, the semigroups which are used to model the way meaning
> is formed, in mathematical linguistics). A musical example: the mathematics
> we can use to classify all the transpositions of a row, in a piece of serial
> music, is much more about structure than it is specifically about number or
> numbers.
>
> I think the questions about number and numbers are interesting but they
> might be sort of a red herring, if what we're really interested in is the
> application of mathematics to music.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, lea nicholson wrote:
>
>  I think really we would have to address the question "What is a number?"
>> first. Obviously, Russell and Whiteheads "Principia Mathematica" comes to
>> mind here.
>>
>>
>> On 5 Oct 2009, at 17:01, Manannan Mac Lir wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> I think the question of what the quality of a number is is the
>>> interesting one. On this topic I am ignorant.
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "hans w. koch"
>>> To: microsound at microsound.org
>>> Subject: [microsound] Subject: Re: Bach and mathematics
>>> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 15:46:36 +0200
>>>
>>>
>>> actually, if one looks close, bach is much more about symbols and
>>> numbers, than about mathematics.
>>> he would e.g. put as many notes into a chorale prelude as was the
>>> sum of his names letters taken as numbers. etc.
>>> what makes people think of mathematics is the structural clearness
>>> of his canons and fugues etc.
>>> but, on the other hand he had quite a reputation in leipzig for
>>> playing very entertaining coffee house music with some friends.
>>>
>>> whereas beethoven, who comes across so emotional, was known to
>>> carefully calculate his pieces on whatever was at hand, up to the
>>> point,
>>> that once he used the window-shutters of his summer vacation
>>> residency to scribble calculations all over, which the owner of
>>> that residency sold for a good price
>>> as a souvenir to some fans.
>>>
>>> in renaissance, when they composed the most complicated canons,
>>> which sound so expressive and lush (e.g."missa prolationum" by
>>> ockhegem), the prevailing idea was
>>> to compose for the greater glory of god. so some aspects of the
>>> composition were supposed to be only intelligble by god, while the
>>> other aspects remained accessible for human listening as well.
>>>
>>> hans
>>> www.hans-w-koch.net
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:24:45 +0300
>>> From: Batuhan Bozkurt
>>> To: microsound at microsound.org
>>> Subject: Re: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
>>> Message-ID: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323 at batuhanbozkurt.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>>
>>> Hi Ismael, I think this is an interesting subject.
>>>
>>> Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see
>>> how the article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and maybe
>>> than can provide a framework for the discussion.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, the notion that integrating mathematics into music,
>>> makes the art form seem more difficult and incomprehensible for others
>>> is flawed. In this particular case, I think composing baroque music
>>> already "needs" know-how, and is difficult regardless of the inclusion
>>> of mathematics into it. It needs previous exposure, ear training,
>>> analysis, studies, experience, many stuff. One simply isn't born with
>>> it, and occasional listening just won't cut it for anyone except the
>>> extremely talented.
>>>
>>> And the case is similar with mathematics. Here I must say that some of
>>> my favorite artists are mathematicians, architects, physicists,
>>> philosophers etc. (they don't necessarily have to do anything else) so
>>> I don't discriminate between the sides of an artificially constructed
>>> border which separates sciences and fine arts. I see nothing wrong
>>> with pursuing a mathematical integrity in a particular work or between
>>> a body of works, on various time scales; this is just another approach
>>> to artistic composition and the approaches are governed by personal
>>> preferences (i.e. what an individual thinks is worthy of taking
>>> inspiration from).
>>>
>>> Mathematics is accessible to anyone, just like music. Taking
>>> inspiration from it, and using it as a basis of artistic work does not
>>> necessarily make things more difficult for anyone. It just might make
>>> it "look" difficult for those who are not interested enough in
>>> mathematics to study it in more depth. But the same situation is there
>>> even if there is no mathematics involved. Composing, (for example)
>>> baroque music might also look difficult to anyone who is not
>>> interested enough in studying the stylistic details of the era, this,
>>> in the same sense make things "look" difficult for others. Art doesn't
>>> come out of thin air, and everyone has their inspiration sources
>>> whether they are conscious about it or not. And approaching the
>>> analysis of ones work from different perspectives (mathematical,
>>> sociological etc.) would not hurt anyone I guess, I don't see a
>>> problem with that.
>>>
>>> Because of this, judging the quality of artworks by means of the
>>> difficulty of production doesn't feel right for me, because difficulty
>>> of something is subjective, depends on the choices (and by effect
>>> training) of the individual. I see this also makes you feel
>>> uncomfortable but it seems that this uneasiness is there only for
>>> mathematics. Because I see that there is a little contradiction in
>>> what you've just said; you say that you prefer some other artists over
>>> Escher and some of your reasons for this preference includes "usage of
>>> color by those people is far more difficult therefore they produce
>>> real art". This is highly subjective territory. The works of Escher
>>> has its own difficulties and others have their own. I see no sensible
>>> way of comparing them objectively, there can only be preferences. And
>>> I personally feel closer to Escher's works not because I think he
>>> makes more "difficult and real art", but because the way he approaches
>>> to material, source, form and other things appeal more to me as an
>>> individual, I also care about similar stuff. That is my preference as
>>> an individual, but I can't say that Escher makes "real art" just
>>> because we care about similar things...
>>>
>>>  - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
>>>> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
>>>> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
>>>> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
>>>> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
>>>> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure, mathematical integrity is not considered only for
>>> Bach's music. In my opinion, any time you analyze a work by using some
>>> sort of abstract thinking, logical reasoning and try to reduce the
>>> vast amount of musical information by grouping similarities etc. you
>>> are essentially doing some sorts of maths on it. I can only speculate
>>> about your question here, but in the case of Bach's music (and in the
>>> body of some other baroque music too), the mathematical integrity on
>>> some of the works tend to stand out more, because the creator of the
>>> particular work seems to be mainly inspired by abstract thinking.
>>> Sometimes you can really see that the artist tried to limit him/
>>> herself to pursue a mathematical integrity in a particular work. One
>>> can approach analyzing, say, Escher's repetitive, self-similar tile
>>> based works by abstract thinking and it immediately becomes obvious
>>> what he tried to achieve, how he tried to be creative between the
>>> borders of self imposed limits for creating something. Similarly, one
>>> can also do the same while trying to analyze how Picasso dissects and
>>> reduces a form of something to its essentials, and might conclude that
>>> while there is some deterministic direction in how he tries to achieve
>>> the final form of something, his intentions are not directly guided by
>>> mathematical constructs. That would mean that he mainly relies on
>>> other inspirational sources (and/or self imposed limits for artistic
>>> expression) which might be obvious for someone who knows what he is
>>> really concerned about. It might be very easy to see it for someone,
>>> but really difficult for others who are not familiar with it.
>>> Essentially the same with how the integration of mathematics in
>>> analysis makes a work seem like for others.
>>>
>>> That said, as a last note, I don't really believe that Bach was a
>>> hardcore mathematician in any sense, and relied primarily to that
>>> while creating his pieces. His ability to take really simple,
>>> seemingly natural mathematical constructs and use them in really
>>> efficient and striking ways astonishes me, and one can see that in
>>> some pieces he really tried to achieve a strict mathematical
>>> integrity. But most of those mathematical constructs are more or less
>>> common for the baroque era, I personally care about how he used them
>>> to create such beautiful music.
>>>
>>> I haven't seen the paper you've mentioned, so I must say that, while
>>> looking for hidden patterns, little mathematical wits are fun and
>>> educating, but searching for very advanced stuff and attributing them
>>> to Bach's conscious compositional thinking model would be highly
>>> speculative in my opinion (thought I can't cite anything about this,
>>> I'm speculating). Those constructs might really be there, but after
>>> all, there must be a formal way of explaining why one likes a
>>> particular piece of music anyway (which probably will never be
>>> expressed with an elegant mathematical formula). As an example, one
>>> might be able to find "golden ratio" in effect in just about any
>>> artistic creation; but not all artists know what golden ratio is
>>> formally, it might be here and there, just because of exposure and
>>> familiarity. Similarly one might also analyze a Bach piece to death,
>>> to find advanced mathematical constructs that makes it sound
>>> beautiful, but finding them doesn't necessarily mean that the artist
>>> put them into the piece by making rigorous mathematical calculations
>>> consciously. Nonetheless, I think there is no problem in approaching
>>> analysis in that way unless the results of findings are attributed to
>>> the artist in that way.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Batuhan Bozkurt
>>> /* http://www.earslap.com */
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres wrote:
>>>
>>>  Recently we have discussed about an article in a very popular spanish
>>>> blog talking about the relationship between J.S. Bach's music and
>>>> mathematics. It's very common to relation both, but that relationship
>>>> has always made feel uncomfortable, mainly because of two reasons.
>>>>
>>>> - Many people suffer because they feel they don't understand art (as
>>>> if art were understandable at all!) and they often search for ways to
>>>> "measure" art. This makes them feel comfortable, as thus they can call
>>>> "artist" to someone that simply makes use of his know-how to make
>>>> something apparently difficult for the rest. Internet people often
>>>> treat Escher as the best painter ever. Escher's drawings were tricky
>>>> and enjoyable, but i.e. usage of color by people like Picasso, Miro,
>>>> Malevich, Kandinsky, etc. is for me far more difficult and real art.
>>>>
>>>> - Also many people talk about mathematics when they simply see
>>>> repetitive patterns and simetry. For many people "mathematics" is
>>>> simply "arithmetics", and for me mathematics is a far deeper science.
>>>> Why people only talk of mathematics referring to baroc music like
>>>> Bach's and not referring to Liszt Transcendental Studies, which sure
>>>> also contain a lot of mathematics and a lot more sophisticated ones?
>>>>
>>>> Nonetheless I'd like to know the truth about the relationship between
>>>> Bach and mathematics, even if he really worked as a mathematician as
>>>> some say. Also of course I'd like to know your opinion about the
>>>> relationship between Bach's music (and others' music!) and
>>>> mathematics.
>>>>
>>>> Any comments, ideas, welcome, so thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Cordially, Ismael
>>>> -- Ismael Valladolid Torres Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
>>>> http://twitter.com/ivalladt
>>>>
>>>> t. 0034912519850 Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
>>>> m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo) http://groups.to/lamediahostia
>>>>
>>>> Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
>>>> Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
>>>> AIM/ICQ: 264472328 GnuPG key: DE721AF4
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> microsound mailing list
>>>> microsound at microsound.org
>>>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> microsound mailing list
>>> microsound at microsound.org
>>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> An Excellent Credit Score is 750
>>> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> microsound mailing list
>>> microsound at microsound.org
>>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From ivalladt at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 02:08:52 2009
From: ivalladt at gmail.com (Ismael Valladolid Torres)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:08:52 +0200
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
Message-ID: <a6ac48e0910052308s345b1c75s73d6b9d260b43774@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Batuhan Bozkurt
<batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com> wrote:
> Could you please provide the source of the article? There we can see how the
> article approaches the inner workings of Bach's work and maybe than can
> provide a framework for the discussion.

Article is in spanish, and it's not deep at all. Far deeper was my
discussion with the author. Nonetheless the YouTube clip included
makes it understandable I hope.

http://mangasverdes.es/2009/09/13/musica-y-matematicas/

Your comments are fascinating, thanks everyone.

Cordially, Ismael
-- 
Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
  <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt

t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia

Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
      Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
                         AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4

From ivalladt at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 02:11:36 2009
From: ivalladt at gmail.com (Ismael Valladolid Torres)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:11:36 +0200
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
	<424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6ac48e0910052311r29037318o5aa1154c03a09bd5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Paulo Mouat <paulo.mouat at gmail.com> wrote:
> Some of the relationships between math and music are covered here:
> http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html

Link is broken!

Cordially, Ismael
-- 
Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
  <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt

t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia

Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
      Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
                         AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4

From ivalladt at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 03:28:56 2009
From: ivalladt at gmail.com (Ismael Valladolid Torres)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:28:56 +0200
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0910050845250.5946@chow.mat.jhu.edu>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
	<424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0910050845250.5946@chow.mat.jhu.edu>
Message-ID: <a6ac48e0910060028p2d34a76o649c4e694b0ef4eb@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Andrew Salch <asalch at math.jhu.edu> wrote:
> I'm glad somebody has already posted a link to Dave Benson's excellent book.

This one? http://bit.ly/S3flz

From paulo.mouat at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 05:57:39 2009
From: paulo.mouat at gmail.com (Paulo Mouat)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 05:57:39 -0400
Subject: [microsound] Bach and mathematics
In-Reply-To: <a6ac48e0910052311r29037318o5aa1154c03a09bd5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6ac48e0910050134q362c3d1aq1d63bbb5ed7780a9@mail.gmail.com>
	<213FEAC1-79D0-4009-BA02-70C6031BA323@batuhanbozkurt.com>
	<424ce300910050542y6e215444v348442fd3e1f0411@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6ac48e0910052311r29037318o5aa1154c03a09bd5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <424ce300910060257i111318d5x37c1647de9861093@mail.gmail.com>

Works for me. But here is a shortened version: http://bit.ly/2HXb1
(links to a free pdf version of the book)

//p
http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:11 AM, Ismael Valladolid Torres <ivalladt at gmail.com
> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Paulo Mouat <paulo.mouat at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Some of the relationships between math and music are covered here:
> > http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~bensondj/html/maths-music.html
>
> Link is broken!
>
> Cordially, Ismael
> --
> Ismael Valladolid Torres      Hey there! ivalladt is using Twitter.
>  <ivalladt at gmail.com>        http://twitter.com/ivalladt
>
> t. 0034912519850              Facebook: http://profile.to/ivalladt
> m. 0034609884094 (Yoigo)                http://groups.to/lamediahostia
>
> Google Talk/Jabber/MSN Messenger: ivalladt at gmail.com
>      Jaiku/Twitter/Skype/Yahoo!: ivalladt
>                         AIM/ICQ: 264472328     GnuPG key: DE721AF4
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From kim at anechoicmedia.com  Tue Oct  6 15:17:09 2009
From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:17:09 -0700
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
Message-ID: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>

I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn, how 
many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound 
anniversary this month?
and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
:)
KIM

From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Tue Oct  6 15:18:33 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:18:33 +0100
Subject: [microsound] meta-theory
In-Reply-To: <20090928100025.754FD606865@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20090928100025.754FD606865@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910061218r7ff7d3f9k3c17244d73fb621f@mail.gmail.com>

What a fantastic and encouraging response. Thank you. Ligeti's "solid,
infinite block of sound" is inspiring...I've not heard of that one before.
It reminds me of something I was contemplating recently...an idea I like to
call "transolipsistic art". An example:

A regular geometric object, on any order of magnitude. To not merely
perceive it, but to literally be it. Thus, to be the harmonies and rhythms
of a static, geometric object in space. The object is "perfectly" solid, ie,
not constructed of smaller components like molecules, atoms and sub-atoms.
It is an indivisable object, even on our "macroscale". The harmony and
rhythm of indivisable solidness whilst paradoxicall having borders and
limits in the forms of the faces, edges and outside surfaces of said object.

Hmmm.

"I dont think any music theory has really taken into account feedback loops
in the contemporary sense."

I should try pitching it all to people of magazines, journals, blogs!
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From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Tue Oct  6 15:19:41 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:19:41 +0100
Subject: [microsound] meta-theory
In-Reply-To: <5badef3b0910061218r7ff7d3f9k3c17244d73fb621f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090928100025.754FD606865@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
	<5badef3b0910061218r7ff7d3f9k3c17244d73fb621f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910061219u75995ec6he70cae36b053e0e7@mail.gmail.com>

My apologies, that was supposed to read "paradoxically" of course.
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From traktorman at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 15:41:22 2009
From: traktorman at gmail.com (tkrakowiak)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:41:22 -0400
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <aa0f71fc0910061241q4bba65edxbc97c3e4f0fe59a0@mail.gmail.com>

toronto, canada, anybody?


2009/10/6 Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>

> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn, how many
> of the people who wrote on the WIKI
> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound
> anniversary this month?
> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
> :)
> KIM
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From macdara at email.com  Tue Oct  6 18:02:40 2009
From: macdara at email.com (Manannan Mac Lir)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:02:40 -0500
Subject: [microsound] meta-theory
Message-ID: <20091006220240.B9E3E1BF28D@ws1-10.us4.outblaze.com>

I've been wondering about exactly how much of a role my own body plays in
experiencing sound. On a very simplistic level cold showers usually
trigger?really fast music in my head/voice?as my body turns on the
adrenaline, similarly I was walking home late the other night and started
looking at a light wavy (I think it's called cirrus) layer of cloud
moving slow enough to just perceive and it seemed like I was watching
Ligeti's Atmosphere (back to him I know), but is my experience of music
based entirely on?the creation of?physical states, which then become?an
analog of experience? i.e. am I experiencing this?physical sensation
through sound?When I was watching the cloud it was like it's movement,
it's texture all the tiny?droplets of moisture?it was comprised of had
been realized in sound, internalized and it was like I was somehow
experiencing a dissolution of the boundary between myself and the cloud
(not literally unfortunately). So is my experience derived almost
completely from "the body" in the expanded sense? Or, to treat it like a
scientific experiment, how would I go about reproducing that experience
for another objective person? To me the effect that the experience/music
had was like a synaesthesis more than a kinaesthesis like these
experiences had been waiting to merge back into each other, cloud, music,
cloud... Still gettin to grips with your paradoxes but I think we really
experience the paradox as "logic" but because my education/perception has
been inverted for so long it takes a little used to turning your ideas
inside out, but if you start from the outside it all seems to make
sense... maybe?

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Adam Davis"
  To: microsound at microsound.org
  Subject: Re: [microsound] meta-theory
  Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:18:33 +0100

  What a fantastic and encouraging?response. Thank you. Ligeti's
  "solid, infinite block of sound" is inspiring...I've not heard of
  that one before. It reminds me of something I was contemplating
  recently...an idea I like to call "transolipsistic art". An example:?A
  regular?geometric object, on any order of magnitude. To not merely
  perceive it, but to literally?be it. Thus, to be the harmonies and
  rhythms of a static, geometric object in space. The object is
  "perfectly" solid, ie, not constructed of smaller components like
  molecules, atoms and sub-atoms. It is an indivisable object, even on
  our "macroscale".?The harmony and rhythm of indivisable solidness
  whilst paradoxicall having borders and limits in the forms of the
  faces, edges and outside surfaces of said object.?Hmmm. ??"I dont
  think any music theory has really taken into account feedback loops
  in the contemporary sense."?I should try pitching it all?to people of
  magazines, journals, blogs! ?
  _______________________________________________
  microsound mailing list
  microsound at microsound.org
  http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound

-- 
An Excellent Credit Score is 750 
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

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From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Tue Oct  6 18:46:56 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:46:56 +0100
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <aa0f71fc0910061241q4bba65edxbc97c3e4f0fe59a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
	<aa0f71fc0910061241q4bba65edxbc97c3e4f0fe59a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910061546t60a0c703l4337f1df078526b@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody in Nottingham, or passing on through Nottingham? I could always
celebrate by myself! :/
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From dvnt.sea at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 23:21:36 2009
From: dvnt.sea at gmail.com (dvnt.sea@gmail)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:21:36 -0400
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <D8D79FCF-DDCC-4FB6-BBBE-D7E2705BDA39@gmail.com>


hi Kim,

I threw out the remote concert idea to see if there were any takers.   
Unfortunately I don't have the
time or attentional bandwidth to organize a large concert in October  
myself - unless someone around
Troy, NY wants to help out?

**otherwise, your message has driven me to action:  On October 27th at  
12:01:33 ET I will be on Skype, and will
improvise for 23 minutes and 14 seconds using only skype feedback and  
noise floor as source material. 23:14
is an approximation of Gelfond's constant (e^pi) so this is more  
microsound than ever! ; )**

I am not joking about this either.  I will figure out some way to  
broadcast this and announce -- ustream being my backup plan.

: )

doug


On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn, how  
> many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound  
> anniversary this month?
> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
> :)
> KIM
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound


From dvnt.sea at gmail.com  Tue Oct  6 23:21:36 2009
From: dvnt.sea at gmail.com (dvnt.sea@gmail)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:21:36 -0400
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <D8D79FCF-DDCC-4FB6-BBBE-D7E2705BDA39@gmail.com>


hi Kim,

I threw out the remote concert idea to see if there were any takers.   
Unfortunately I don't have the
time or attentional bandwidth to organize a large concert in October  
myself - unless someone around
Troy, NY wants to help out?

**otherwise, your message has driven me to action:  On October 27th at  
12:01:33 ET I will be on Skype, and will
improvise for 23 minutes and 14 seconds using only skype feedback and  
noise floor as source material. 23:14
is an approximation of Gelfond's constant (e^pi) so this is more  
microsound than ever! ; )**

I am not joking about this either.  I will figure out some way to  
broadcast this and announce -- ustream being my backup plan.

: )

doug


On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Kim Cascone wrote:

> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn, how  
> many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound  
> anniversary this month?
> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
> :)
> KIM
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound


From dwnewman at clara.co.uk  Wed Oct  7 02:03:34 2009
From: dwnewman at clara.co.uk (David Newman)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 07:03:34 +0100
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <5badef3b0910061546t60a0c703l4337f1df078526b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1MvPcW-0003Rs-Mj@ptb-relay01.plus.net>

I can play Nottingham! If you have a gig going ...
 

David Newman 
  
Audiobulb Records 
 <http://www.audiobulb.com/> http://www.audiobulb.com 
  
To keep informed - sign up to our newsletter on-site 
  
https://twitter.com/audiobulb | http://www.myspace.com/audiobulb 

 

  _____  

From: microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound-bounces at or8.net] On
Behalf Of Adam Davis
Sent: 06 October 2009 23:47
To: microsound at microsound.org
Subject: Re: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations


Anybody in Nottingham, or passing on through Nottingham? I could always
celebrate by myself! :/


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From marcus at wrango.com  Wed Oct  7 04:57:16 2009
From: marcus at wrango.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcus_Wrang=F6?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 10:57:16 +0200
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com>

Hello Kim and everyone!

I've a concert the october 28th (7.30pm local time) at Fylkingen here  
in Stockholm, Sweden. I know a couple of listmembers sent me emails  
and I'm going to contact you in the following days..

The concert is called: .microsound10years

There's still a open call for people to send me interesting  
microsounding stuff. We have a 8.1 surround system.
The only people yet on the programme is me and and another local  
artist (Mattias Petersson) so there is still a great possibilty to get  
stuff played or shown.

For the moment, I'm putting up a small info website to link to.

I'm back soon with info about the site..

Best regards
Marcus Wrango
Stockholm, Sweden.


On 6 okt 2009, at 21.17, Kim Cascone wrote:

> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn, how  
> many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound  
> anniversary this month?
> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
> :)
> KIM
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound

-------------------------------------------------
Marcus Wrang?
marcus at wrango.com
-------------------------------------------------
http://marcus.wrango.com
http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
-------------------------------------------------






From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Wed Oct  7 10:15:36 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:15:36 +0100
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
	<52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com>
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910070715l5fbbfe5cved8d469b335afee0@mail.gmail.com>

"I can play Nottingham! If you have a gig going ..."

Fantastic! Well, I was hoping to organise a spoken word event with
microsound-related material to be recited in celebration of the 10 years.
Unfortunately I don't have the resources to organise anything like an
electronic sound art concert, just unplugged spoken word :(
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From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Wed Oct  7 10:36:12 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:36:12 +0100
Subject: [microsound] Beyond Numbers
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910070736u3b03ae2ak1c778d4eff6e7ec8@mail.gmail.com>

Friends,

Branching out from the interesting "Bach and Mathematics" thread, I wanted
to share with you my personal expression of mathematics and music:

Everything as fundamentally number, infinitely. Thus, to react against this
via, say, extreme postposthuman innovations:

Numbers <-------------------->
Anti-numeralism/trans-numeralism/infra-numeralism

However:

"Numbers <--------------------> Anti-numbers"...a duality, thus 2!

Number/anti-number duality feeding back to number. Thus, postposthuman
"cyclo-anarchic" technology that will allow for the breaking out of feedback
and currently inescapable cycles.

~

To break out of number is to break out of infinity...is to break out of
feedback and endless contradiction.

Earlier versions of this concept can be found as illustrations here:

http://www.hpluscommunity.com/photo/dsc02154-1?context=album&albumId=2899471%3AAlbum%3A7110

And here:

http://www.hpluscommunity.com/photo/cycle-1?context=album&albumId=2899471%3AAlbum%3A7110

Best wishes,
Adam
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From cyborgk at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 11:39:07 2009
From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 10:39:07 -0500
Subject: [microsound] Beyond Numbers
In-Reply-To: <5badef3b0910070736u3b03ae2ak1c778d4eff6e7ec8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5badef3b0910070736u3b03ae2ak1c778d4eff6e7ec8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <686ba4e40910070839s719091fas9b62e67fe19b6842@mail.gmail.com>

Adam,

I think you are making some fundamental philosophical mistakes.

You write: 'Thus, postposthuman "cyclo-anarchic" technology that will
allow for the breaking out of feedback and currently inescapable
cycles.'

However, you are misapplying the concepts of FEEDBACK and CYCLES.

*FEEDBACK is not of a single type. Feedback can lead to growth, death,
or homeostasis. Feedback loops are a part of nature. We cannot say
that any of these things are "bad" except insofar as we examine the
particular consequences and context wherein the feedback occurs. Not
only that, but FEEDBACK loops can certainly lead to instability and
chaos, so I am not sure why they are associated with "inescapable
cycles."

*Furthermore, CYCLES are not the same thing as FEEDBACK. Neither is it
necessarily a problem that cycles are "inescapable." Cycles are a part
of our human experience and of nature. The cycle of the four seasons
can be experienced joyfully when we live in harmony with nature. If
you are speaking of the cycles imposed by capitalism, you might have a
point. However, capitalism in fact attempts to create purely linear
growth, and cycles are more the unintended consequence of a complex
system that the capitalists don't entirely understand. Henri LeFebvre
differentiates between two types of rhythm, linear, that is to say
repetitive, like a series of identical actions performed by a worker
using a machine on the factory assembly line, and cyclic, which is
more associated with waves and natural patterns, including patterns of
our body (such as awake-asleep).

You also wrote: "To break out of number is to break out of
infinity...is to break out of feedback and endless contradiction."

As far as INFINITY, this sounds too speculative and I'm going to leave
that one alone. Suffice it to say that my existence as a finite being
in an unknown and vast universe is not problematic to me.

WIth regards to "breaking out of feedback," my previous comments
apply. In fact, feedback often leads to chaotic patterns, so feedback
breaks out of itself through its own internal energy. You must be
thinking only of feedback loops tending towards homeostasis.

Finally, in regards to endless contradiction, have you given thought
to dialectics? Dialectics is essentially a non-dualistic view of
logic, in its simplistic form stating that THESIS and ANTI-THESIS may
be resolved in a SYNTHESIS that transcends the two terms. Dialectics
implies endless contradiction, certainly, but recognizes that
contradiction may be historical and that under certain conditions
contradictions are transcended, growth occurs, new forms take shape,
and new contradictions appear that reflect the new historical
situation.

Only in a universe devoid of history are we doomed to repeat the same
ad infinitum. But surely history does take place. A universe without
history is imposed on us by those who can only realize their profits
via maintaining conformity and the status quo. If the future is open,
how can one be certain of making a profit? The closed universe is
necessary for those who wish control over society and nature. Those
who live in harmony with nature, who relinquish the idea of absolute
control through technological and economic means, should not buy into
the myth that history is at an end. We are doomed to repeat the same,
only because we are unaware of our freedom to do otherwise.

It might be wise to recall the words of Walter Benjamin here: "It is
well-known that the Jews were forbidden to look into the future. The
Torah and the prayers instructed them, by contrast, in remembrance.
This disenchanted those who fell prey to the future, who sought advice
from the soothsayers. For that reason the future did not, however,
turn into a homogenous and empty time for the Jews. For in it every
second was the narrow gate, through which the Messiah could enter."

~David

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Adam Davis <technohead3d at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> Branching out from the interesting "Bach and Mathematics" thread, I wanted
> to share with you my personal expression of mathematics and music:
>
> Everything as fundamentally number, infinitely. Thus, to react against this
> via, say, extreme postposthuman innovations:
>
> Numbers <-------------------->
> Anti-numeralism/trans-numeralism/infra-numeralism
>
> However:
>
> "Numbers <--------------------> Anti-numbers"...a duality, thus 2!
>
> Number/anti-number duality feeding back to number. Thus, postposthuman
> "cyclo-anarchic" technology that will allow for the breaking out of feedback
> and currently inescapable cycles.
>
> ~
>
> To break out of number is to break out of infinity...is to break out of
> feedback and endless contradiction.
>
> Earlier versions of this concept can be found as illustrations here:
>
> http://www.hpluscommunity.com/photo/dsc02154-1?context=album&albumId=2899471%3AAlbum%3A7110
>
> And here:
>
> http://www.hpluscommunity.com/photo/cycle-1?context=album&albumId=2899471%3AAlbum%3A7110
>
> Best wishes,
> Adam
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>

From sethchrisman at gmail.com  Wed Oct  7 17:45:46 2009
From: sethchrisman at gmail.com (Seth Chrisman)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:45:46 -0600
Subject: [microsound] meta-theory
In-Reply-To: <5badef3b0909271445r2c93ef5cte2d13640fd8ffc43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090927170806.86367606869@ws1-4.us4.outblaze.com>
	<5badef3b0909271445r2c93ef5cte2d13640fd8ffc43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a28f0c5a0910071445t6a39e6d2m8c6ce3928c466622@mail.gmail.com>

Quantum superposition <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition>

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Adam Davis <technohead3d at googlemail.com>wrote:

> This comparison may be rather crude, but I think trying to answer that
> question is analogous to a very prehistoric human trying to deduce what is
> beyond the big blue thing above it. I'd say probably millions of years from
> now, we will need extreme innovations that will physically manifest what we
> qould now consider to be absurd illogic. Take the Law of the Excluded
> Middle, for instance. It states that everything must either be or not
> be...but what if the "postposthuman" technology I just speculated would
> invert such a law and allow something to be physically being and not being,
> simultaneously on, say, the macroscale. Or, for an infinite impossibility to
> actually occurr whilst still remaining infinitely impossible.
>
> Paradox: A frontier outside of infinity...but surely infinity, because of
> it's infinite nature, would encompass the frontier outside of it; feedback,
> a loop...thus the need for cyclo-anarchic technology that will allow
> paradoxes to be transcended and for a "frontier outside of infinity" to be
> explored...for absurd illogic to exist and to be explored physically.
>
> I'd love to hear some of your ideas too :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>
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From marcus at wrango.com  Thu Oct  8 05:49:40 2009
From: marcus at wrango.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marcus_Wrang=F6?=)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:49:40 +0200
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
	<52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com>
Message-ID: <B8A1E31F-2823-4089-952E-46F65C899C3C@wrango.com>

Hi Again!

Now there's a small website, and also linked from the wiki, about the  
event in Stockholm:

http://micro.sound.fm

Please send stuff if you have! ;-)

all the best!
/marcus

On 7 okt 2009, at 10.57, Marcus Wrang? wrote:

> Hello Kim and everyone!
>
> I've a concert the october 28th (7.30pm local time) at Fylkingen  
> here in Stockholm, Sweden. I know a couple of listmembers sent me  
> emails and I'm going to contact you in the following days..
>
> The concert is called: .microsound10years
>
> There's still a open call for people to send me interesting  
> microsounding stuff. We have a 8.1 surround system.
> The only people yet on the programme is me and and another local  
> artist (Mattias Petersson) so there is still a great possibilty to  
> get stuff played or shown.
>
> For the moment, I'm putting up a small info website to link to.
>
> I'm back soon with info about the site..
>
> Best regards
> Marcus Wrango
> Stockholm, Sweden.
>
>
> On 6 okt 2009, at 21.17, Kim Cascone wrote:
>
>> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn,  
>> how many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
>> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
>> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound  
>> anniversary this month?
>> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
>> :)
>> KIM
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound mailing list
>> microsound at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Marcus Wrang?
> marcus at wrango.com
> -------------------------------------------------
> http://marcus.wrango.com
> http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound

-------------------------------------------------
Marcus Wrang?
marcus at wrango.com
-------------------------------------------------
http://marcus.wrango.com
http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
-------------------------------------------------






From jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net  Thu Oct  8 07:35:14 2009
From: jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net (John Hopkins)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:35:14 +1100
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
In-Reply-To: <D8D79FCF-DDCC-4FB6-BBBE-D7E2705BDA39@gmail.com>
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com>
	<D8D79FCF-DDCC-4FB6-BBBE-D7E2705BDA39@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ACDCE72.2070205@tech-no-mad.net>

Hei!

I had hoped to organize a stream(ed/ing) happening here in Sydney, but between 
getting settled in OZ and teaching and working on my research, I just haven't 
had the extra energy to do so.  I may get a small jolt to action closer to the 
27th and do something ad hoc, but will have to wait and see.

If there are any streams I'll try to be an attentive audience member!! ;-))

> **otherwise, your message has driven me to action:  On October 27th at 
> 12:01:33 ET I will be on Skype, and will
> improvise for 23 minutes and 14 seconds using only skype feedback and 
> noise floor as source material. 23:14
> is an approximation of Gelfond's constant (e^pi) so this is more 
> microsound than ever! ; )**
> 
> I am not joking about this either.  I will figure out some way to 
> broadcast this and announce -- ustream being my backup plan.

I'll try to tune in from Sydney!  Keep us posted!

jh

From neumann at alulatonserien.de  Thu Oct  8 11:15:39 2009
From: neumann at alulatonserien.de (Daniel Neumann)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:15:39 -0400
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com><52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com>
	<B8A1E31F-2823-4089-952E-46F65C899C3C@wrango.com>
Message-ID: <212FD9D88FD744F0811EFF8CF4836BBE@MeinNotebook>

Hi Marcus,

Diapason Gallery, in Brooklyn, NY is dedicating the whole month of October 
to microsound. Maybe you want to link to our website:
diapasongallery.org

Thanks!
Daniel


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Wrang?" <marcus at wrango.com>
To: <microsound at microsound.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations


Hi Again!

Now there's a small website, and also linked from the wiki, about the
event in Stockholm:

http://micro.sound.fm

Please send stuff if you have! ;-)

all the best!
/marcus

On 7 okt 2009, at 10.57, Marcus Wrang? wrote:

> Hello Kim and everyone!
>
> I've a concert the october 28th (7.30pm local time) at Fylkingen  here in 
> Stockholm, Sweden. I know a couple of listmembers sent me  emails and I'm 
> going to contact you in the following days..
>
> The concert is called: .microsound10years
>
> There's still a open call for people to send me interesting  microsounding 
> stuff. We have a 8.1 surround system.
> The only people yet on the programme is me and and another local  artist 
> (Mattias Petersson) so there is still a great possibilty to  get stuff 
> played or shown.
>
> For the moment, I'm putting up a small info website to link to.
>
> I'm back soon with info about the site..
>
> Best regards
> Marcus Wrango
> Stockholm, Sweden.
>
>
> On 6 okt 2009, at 21.17, Kim Cascone wrote:
>
>> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn,  how 
>> many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
>> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
>> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound 
>> anniversary this month?
>> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
>> :)
>> KIM
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound mailing list
>> microsound at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Marcus Wrang?
> marcus at wrango.com
> -------------------------------------------------
> http://marcus.wrango.com
> http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound

-------------------------------------------------
Marcus Wrang?
marcus at wrango.com
-------------------------------------------------
http://marcus.wrango.com
http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
-------------------------------------------------





_______________________________________________
microsound mailing list
microsound at microsound.org
http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound



From neumann at alulatonserien.de  Thu Oct  8 11:51:19 2009
From: neumann at alulatonserien.de (Daniel Neumann)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:51:19 -0400
Subject: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations - offlist.sorry!
References: <4ACB97B5.4080504@anechoicmedia.com><52A66E30-ED8D-4850-9A21-46B147F181BC@wrango.com><B8A1E31F-2823-4089-952E-46F65C899C3C@wrango.com>
	<212FD9D88FD744F0811EFF8CF4836BBE@MeinNotebook>
Message-ID: <E634A218C6164C5092D103817D603F2F@MeinNotebook>

That was supposed to be offlist..
I'm sorry


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Neumann" <neumann at alulatonserien.de>
To: <microsound at microsound.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations


Hi Marcus,

XXX

Thanks!
Daniel


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Wrang?" <marcus at wrango.com>
To: <microsound at microsound.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [microsound] 10 year anniversary celebrations


Hi Again!

Now there's a small website, and also linked from the wiki, about the
event in Stockholm:

http://micro.sound.fm

Please send stuff if you have! ;-)

all the best!
/marcus

On 7 okt 2009, at 10.57, Marcus Wrang? wrote:

> Hello Kim and everyone!
>
> I've a concert the october 28th (7.30pm local time) at Fylkingen  here in 
> Stockholm, Sweden. I know a couple of listmembers sent me  emails and I'm 
> going to contact you in the following days..
>
> The concert is called: .microsound10years
>
> There's still a open call for people to send me interesting  microsounding 
> stuff. We have a 8.1 surround system.
> The only people yet on the programme is me and and another local  artist 
> (Mattias Petersson) so there is still a great possibilty to  get stuff 
> played or shown.
>
> For the moment, I'm putting up a small info website to link to.
>
> I'm back soon with info about the site..
>
> Best regards
> Marcus Wrango
> Stockholm, Sweden.
>
>
> On 6 okt 2009, at 21.17, Kim Cascone wrote:
>
>> I'm just wondering, other than the Diapason Gallery in Brooklyn,  how 
>> many of the people who wrote on the WIKI
>> http://anechoicmedia.wikidot.com/microsound-anniversary
>> are actually planning/having an event for the 10 year .microsound 
>> anniversary this month?
>> and yes, I know I Cc'd on this list -- thank you
>> :)
>> KIM
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound mailing list
>> microsound at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Marcus Wrang?
> marcus at wrango.com
> -------------------------------------------------
> http://marcus.wrango.com
> http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound

-------------------------------------------------
Marcus Wrang?
marcus at wrango.com
-------------------------------------------------
http://marcus.wrango.com
http://soundcloud.com/marcuswrango
-------------------------------------------------





_______________________________________________
microsound mailing list
microsound at microsound.org
http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound


_______________________________________________
microsound mailing list
microsound at microsound.org
http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound



From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Fri Oct  9 10:46:50 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:46:50 +0100
Subject: [microsound] Beyond Numbers
In-Reply-To: <686ba4e40910070839s719091fas9b62e67fe19b6842@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5badef3b0910070736u3b03ae2ak1c778d4eff6e7ec8@mail.gmail.com>
	<686ba4e40910070839s719091fas9b62e67fe19b6842@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910090746j259a934dtd2d154d4cb333b90@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for such an in-depth and constructive response, David; I really
appreciate that. I have little to pretty much no formal training in
philosophy. I like to think that what I do is the philosophical/speculative
equivalent to art brut. I shall respond to your thoughts as time passes.

Adam :)
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From catsed at libero.it  Wed Oct 21 15:04:34 2009
From: catsed at libero.it (nicola catalano)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 21:04:34 +0200
Subject: [microsound] test, please ignore
In-Reply-To: <5077B7DD-0977-44B7-B2FC-5E71A32CFED5@mac.com>
References: <4A79C153.4030104@craque.net>
	<5077B7DD-0977-44B7-B2FC-5E71A32CFED5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <a06240800c7050bac858d@[151.49.100.34]>

test test test test

From renato.fabbri at gmail.com  Wed Oct 21 15:19:09 2009
From: renato.fabbri at gmail.com (Renato Fabbri)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:19:09 -0200
Subject: [microsound] test, please ignore
In-Reply-To: <a06240800c7050bac858d@151.49.100.34>
References: <4A79C153.4030104@craque.net>
	<5077B7DD-0977-44B7-B2FC-5E71A32CFED5@mac.com>
	<a06240800c7050bac858d@151.49.100.34>
Message-ID: <1f50cb500910211219w7554206fvd97d3e83b0fbc4f5@mail.gmail.com>

i shall not ignore thy test. :p

2009/10/21 nicola catalano <catsed at libero.it>:
> test test test test
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>

From dariusz.edvarese at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 09:56:11 2009
From: dariusz.edvarese at gmail.com (Dariusz Roberte)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:56:11 +1000
Subject: [microsound] test, please ignore
In-Reply-To: <a06240800c7050bac858d@151.49.100.34>
References: <4A79C153.4030104@craque.net>
	<5077B7DD-0977-44B7-B2FC-5E71A32CFED5@mac.com>
	<a06240800c7050bac858d@151.49.100.34>
Message-ID: <a1c9bb860910220656r5a55716an876e49c927e9541@mail.gmail.com>

ing ing ing ing

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:04 AM, nicola catalano <catsed at libero.it> wrote:

> test test test test
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From Jim at spacestudios.org.uk  Thu Oct 22 13:14:04 2009
From: Jim at spacestudios.org.uk (Jim Prevett)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:14:04 +0100
Subject: [microsound] Performances in London sat 24th Oct
Message-ID: <A8587AD1DD47E3488B7CF361C05EC0628A2900@data.space.spacestudios.org.uk>


Some interesting performances in London on Saturday- some of you will
probably be interested in Jo Kazuhiro, Jamie Allen and chip tune
musician PixelH8... Its free as well!

http://www.spacestudios.org.uk/All_Content_Items/Media_Arts/Marching_Roc
ks_Gloves_&_Code/

Jim


From ted.houghtaling at gmail.com  Thu Oct 22 15:34:59 2009
From: ted.houghtaling at gmail.com (ted houghtaling)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:34:59 -0400
Subject: [microsound] to post on list
Message-ID: <30e45e280910221234s5ceafad1g78dd9c1089aedcbb@mail.gmail.com>


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From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 23 19:07:05 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 00:07:05 +0100
Subject: [microsound] Microde to Kraftwerk
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910231607n9b108fcjbf50d59aa3a271c8@mail.gmail.com>

(To go)
Down an infinite Autobahn
To an infinite mix of the
Hit song

Also used as a "bonus track" to the blog post Involuntary, HPlusCommunity
version: http://www.hpluscommunity.com/profiles/blogs/involuntary-1
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From thinksamuel at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 24 10:26:19 2009
From: thinksamuel at yahoo.com (Samuel van ransbeeck)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 07:26:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [microsound] experience with AKAI wind controller anyone?
Message-ID: <844273.92556.qm@web34206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does anyone have experience with the AKAI wind controller? I would like to write a piece for four of them (using normal recorder sounds) and do spatialization in MaxMSP. 

http://www.musicstore.de/en_EN/PTE/Akai-EWI-USB-elektronischer-Blaswandler/art-SYN0003397-000


      
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From dulcettrecords at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 26 04:47:13 2009
From: dulcettrecords at hotmail.com (Robert Rudas)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 01:47:13 -0700
Subject: [microsound] RIP Maryanne Amacher
Message-ID: <COL116-W25CDC6007BBF382CDB66F4CABA0@phx.gbl>


Just got the rather late news that Maryanne Amacher passed away this
past Friday at the age of 66. She was an incredible artist who had
worked with John Cage and studied under Stockhausen back in the day.
She created some wonderful works of ambient music along with
experimental sound installations. One of my most memorable discoveries
of her work was released on John Zorn's label Tzadik. It had a
composition that utilized frequencies capable of vibrating your
cochlear ear bone thus creating a very physical and interesting
listening experience. 



Here is a link of her hanging out with Thurston Moore. Contrary to what
the pitchfork net rag claims, Thurston is actually pushing out his ear
lobes to get the full effect of the ear vibrations. Something that I
also was told to do when listening to the song he is listening to. You
can't achieve the same effect with the compressed version of the audio
but you can actually get all of the following works from her release on
Tzadik:



http://pitchfork.com/news/36893-rip-experimental-sound-artist-maryanne-amacher/ 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009
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From almazaar at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 00:48:47 2009
From: almazaar at gmail.com (Noise Solution)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:48:47 +0100
Subject: [microsound] RIP Maryanne Amacher
In-Reply-To: <COL116-W25CDC6007BBF382CDB66F4CABA0@phx.gbl>
References: <COL116-W25CDC6007BBF382CDB66F4CABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CA833F05-34B8-4B75-81F8-473BBC51282A@gmail.com>



LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU.


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From kim at anechoicmedia.com  Tue Oct 27 04:45:39 2009
From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:45:39 -0700
Subject: [microsound] happy birthday .microsound!
Message-ID: <4AE6B333.3020301@anechoicmedia.com>


      wishes all the .microsound list members a happy 10 year birthday! :)


From dulcettrecords at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 27 06:13:45 2009
From: dulcettrecords at hotmail.com (Robert Rudas)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:13:45 -0700
Subject: [microsound] RIP Maryanne Amacher
In-Reply-To: <CA833F05-34B8-4B75-81F8-473BBC51282A@gmail.com>
References: <COL116-W25CDC6007BBF382CDB66F4CABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL116-W6196322EF76086C58E46A1CAB90@phx.gbl>


What's up with the Gene Ray quote? This guy is looney tunes. 

From: almazaar at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:48:47 +0100
To: microsound at microsound.org
Subject: [microsound] RIP Maryanne Amacher



 LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU.  
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
http://microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default-ga.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:102009
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From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Tue Oct 27 07:50:38 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:50:38 +0000
Subject: [microsound] Birthday micropoem
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910270450p5d0cece1sde3e9d0f972aa4ab@mail.gmail.com>

Freinds,

A short piece I wrote for .microsound's 10th birthday. I actually recited
this as part of a spoken word performance not long ago:

     .microsound can be the rain that, once torrential,
becomes the blissful choir.
     .microsound will be the rain on my posthuman skin,
and also the nanoprobes that rejuvenate the symphony.

Adam
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From Claudio.Barbaranelli at uniroma1.it  Tue Oct 27 11:01:52 2009
From: Claudio.Barbaranelli at uniroma1.it (Claudio.Barbaranelli at uniroma1.it)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:01:52 +0100
Subject: [microsound] =?iso-8859-1?q?Claudio_Barbaranelli_=E8_fuori_uffici?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?o?=
Message-ID: <OF4774CEFA.33C8D45A-ONC125765C.005291D3-C125765C.005291D3@Uniroma1.it>



Risposta automatica dal 24/10/09 fino al 28/10/09

Sar? assente dal 24/10 al 28/10.
Risponder? alle e-mail dopo il 28.
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From thrrobb at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Oct 27 15:52:31 2009
From: thrrobb at hotmail.co.uk (rob beeston)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:52:31 +0000
Subject: [microsound] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CA833F05-34B8-4B75-81F8-473BBC51282A@gmail.com>
References: <COL116-W25CDC6007BBF382CDB66F4CABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W180BCEF199EE5A8A1324CFE1B90@phx.gbl>


was there any need, really?

 

yours,

 

an hiv+ queer (and admirer of maryanne amacher). 
 


From: almazaar at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:48:47 +0100
To: microsound at microsound.org
Subject: [microsound] RIP Maryanne Amacher






LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU. 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger onto your mobile for free
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/174426567/direct/01/
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From nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 16:20:25 2009
From: nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com (nathalie fougeras)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:20:25 +0100
Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] happy birthday .microsound!
In-Reply-To: <4AE6B333.3020301@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4AE6B333.3020301@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <5df1da2b0910271320g11eedd90n5ecf0efe4958c28@mail.gmail.com>

 .... i i i i i i i i i i ....
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::




2009/10/27 Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>

>
>     wishes all the .microsound list members a happy 10 year birthday! :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound-announce mailing list
> microsound-announce at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce
>
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From diosdispone at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 16:48:54 2009
From: diosdispone at gmail.com (gerardo figueroa)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:48:54 -0300
Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] happy birthday .microsound!
In-Reply-To: <5df1da2b0910271320g11eedd90n5ecf0efe4958c28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE6B333.3020301@anechoicmedia.com>
	<5df1da2b0910271320g11eedd90n5ecf0efe4958c28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cde7886c0910271348v2af7826qdfeec4d37c1008b4@mail.gmail.com>

?apio verde, microsound! (as we say here in Chile) :D

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM, nathalie fougeras
<nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  .... i i i i i i i i i i ....
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>
>
>
>
> 2009/10/27 Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>
>>
>>     wishes all the .microsound list members a happy 10 year birthday! :)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound-announce mailing list
>> microsound-announce at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>



-- 
gerardo figueroa rodr?guez
gfr broadcasting system
works in [constant} progress
since 1988
http://gfr.tumblr.com/
http://gfrwurlitzer.tumblr.com/
dios dispone

From diosdispone at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 16:48:54 2009
From: diosdispone at gmail.com (gerardo figueroa)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:48:54 -0300
Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] happy birthday .microsound!
In-Reply-To: <5df1da2b0910271320g11eedd90n5ecf0efe4958c28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4AE6B333.3020301@anechoicmedia.com>
	<5df1da2b0910271320g11eedd90n5ecf0efe4958c28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cde7886c0910271348v2af7826qdfeec4d37c1008b4@mail.gmail.com>

?apio verde, microsound! (as we say here in Chile) :D

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM, nathalie fougeras
<nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  .... i i i i i i i i i i ....
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>
>
>
>
> 2009/10/27 Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>
>>
>>     wishes all the .microsound list members a happy 10 year birthday! :)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> microsound-announce mailing list
>> microsound-announce at microsound.org
>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>



-- 
gerardo figueroa rodr?guez
gfr broadcasting system
works in [constant} progress
since 1988
http://gfr.tumblr.com/
http://gfrwurlitzer.tumblr.com/
dios dispone

From diosdispone at gmail.com  Tue Oct 27 17:08:31 2009
From: diosdispone at gmail.com (gerardo figueroa)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:08:31 -0300
Subject: [microsound] Birthday micropoem
In-Reply-To: <5badef3b0910270450p5d0cece1sde3e9d0f972aa4ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5badef3b0910270450p5d0cece1sde3e9d0f972aa4ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cde7886c0910271408y66c61834xc0902cbd088c327c@mail.gmail.com>

nice, adam

i'm sorry i wasn't able to prepare something ad hoc, but i'm
celebrating anyway ;)

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Adam Davis <technohead3d at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Freinds,
>
> A short piece I wrote for .microsound's 10th birthday. I actually recited
> this as part of a spoken word performance not long ago:
>
>      .microsound can be the rain that, once torrential,
> becomes the blissful choir.
>      .microsound will be the rain on my posthuman skin,
> and also the nanoprobes that rejuvenate the symphony.
>
> Adam
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
>



-- 
gerardo figueroa rodr?guez
gfr broadcasting system
works in [constant} progress
since 1988
http://gfr.tumblr.com/
http://gfrwurlitzer.tumblr.com/
dios dispone

From matdalgleish at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 27 22:45:27 2009
From: matdalgleish at hotmail.com (mat dalgleish)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:45:27 +0000
Subject: [microsound] Happy Birthday / RIP Maryanne Amacher
In-Reply-To: <CA833F05-34B8-4B75-81F8-473BBC51282A@gmail.com>
References: <COL116-W25CDC6007BBF382CDB66F4CABA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL116-W112929405B91CD73E3D8ADC2B80@phx.gbl>


Hi All, 

 

Firstly, hello to everyone on Microsound's birthday, and thanks to everyone who's contributed such intersting material and debate over the years. Long may it continue. 

 

Secondly, how sad we've got a message like the one below - hopefully the poster can be generally vanquished from the list - but it prompted me to finally get round to checking out Maryanne's work - but how great the album Sound Characters on Tzadik is, really interesting uses of otoacoustic effects / ear tones. 

 

Take care, 

 

Mat


 


From: almazaar at gmail.com
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:48:47 +0100
To: microsound at microsound.org
Subject: [microsound] RIP Maryanne Amacher






LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU. 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger onto your mobile for free
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/174426567/direct/01/
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From akisd1 at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 28 03:30:43 2009
From: akisd1 at yahoo.com (akis daoutis)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:30:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [microsound] happy birthday .microsound!
In-Reply-To: <4AE6B333.3020301@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <172584.76946.qm@web30402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Happy Birthday!!!
Xronia polla (in Greek)!
Akis

--- On Tue, 10/27/09, Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com> wrote:


From: Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>
Subject: [microsound] happy birthday .microsound!
To: "microsound_list" <microsound at or8.net>, "Microsound Announce" <microsound-announce at or8.net>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 1:45 AM



? ???wishes all the .microsound list members a happy 10 year birthday! :)

_______________________________________________
microsound mailing list
microsound at microsound.org
http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound



      
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From kim at anechoicmedia.com  Wed Oct 28 05:21:40 2009
From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:21:40 -0700
Subject: [microsound] please do not feed the pigs
Message-ID: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>

all bigotry is mental illness
don't feed the trolls

> LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU. 

From nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 06:34:04 2009
From: nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com (nathalie fougeras)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:34:04 +0100
Subject: [microsound] please do not feed the pigs
In-Reply-To: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <5df1da2b0910280334y74a04de3rcb809a8bafc8a7d7@mail.gmail.com>

.. YES
.. AND HE/SHE HAVE SOME CENTURIES PAST TO BELIEVE STILL AT THIS GOD-EVIL
NOTION !!
WHY HE-SHE CAN?T ASSUME TO BE QUEER HIM-HERSELF?
TOO MUCH PATHETIC FOR ME ;))))))))))))



2009/10/28 Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>

> all bigotry is mental illness
> don't feed the trolls
>
>  LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 06:34:04 2009
From: nathalie.fougeras at gmail.com (nathalie fougeras)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:34:04 +0100
Subject: [microsound] please do not feed the pigs
In-Reply-To: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <5df1da2b0910280334y74a04de3rcb809a8bafc8a7d7@mail.gmail.com>

.. YES
.. AND HE/SHE HAVE SOME CENTURIES PAST TO BELIEVE STILL AT THIS GOD-EVIL
NOTION !!
WHY HE-SHE CAN?T ASSUME TO BE QUEER HIM-HERSELF?
TOO MUCH PATHETIC FOR ME ;))))))))))))



2009/10/28 Kim Cascone <kim at anechoicmedia.com>

> all bigotry is mental illness
> don't feed the trolls
>
>  LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>
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From thrrobb at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Oct 28 08:27:43 2009
From: thrrobb at hotmail.co.uk (rob beeston)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:27:43 +0000
Subject: [microsound] please do not feed the pigs
In-Reply-To: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>
References: <4AE80D24.5060805@anechoicmedia.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W609D7BC8F3276D2F0C25AE1B80@phx.gbl>


on the other hand, i was sat amongst the silence thinking, does nobody else find this repugnant? does 'noise solution' think nobody finds this repugnant? are waverers sat amongst it thinking, well, nobody finds it repugnant so it's maybe not that simple-minded?

 

slnce is gldn/silence=death. 

 

ha!  

 

i showed it to a friend of mine (who knows nothing of microsound). he just rolled his eyes and said, and you subscribe to this mailing list? then he came up with a gysin-esque permutation that turned said phrase on its head. i forget what it was but it was so funny i nearly fell of the altar i worship liberace at. 

 

r
 
> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:21:40 -0700
> From: kim at anechoicmedia.com
> To: microsound at or8.net
> Subject: [microsound] please do not feed the pigs
> 
> all bigotry is mental illness
> don't feed the trolls
> 
> > LOVE FOR A QUEER GOD IS EVIL ENOUGH TO KILL YOU. 
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound at microsound.org
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/buy/
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From macdara at email.com  Wed Oct 28 09:32:22 2009
From: macdara at email.com (macdara at email.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:32:22 -0400
Subject: [microsound] Microfilm
Message-ID: <8CC25EA36ADEC14-137C-1396@web-mmc-d17.sysops.aol.com>

In Antichrist and just the other day a dirty hungaro-romanian movie called Katalin Varga I've been noticing a lot more unusual electronics going on. Can anyone give their own weird-noise/electrons in movies list, ones checkoutable. It seems like the use of the sound is becoming more foregrounded as opposed to background humming and it's great for freakin me out. Is there a general trend of this going on? It seems like popular culture is gettin a bit grainier. 
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From pereshaped at gmail.com  Wed Oct 28 16:00:59 2009
From: pereshaped at gmail.com (Pereshaped)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:00:59 +0000
Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] happy birthday .microsound!
Message-ID: <beade3c90910281300n47c0b25bxd0954513608fc81@mail.gmail.com>

Happy birthday all, happy to be here :-)

Pere

From dev at commtom.com  Fri Oct 30 15:26:19 2009
From: dev at commtom.com (devslashnull)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:26:19 -0600
Subject: [microsound] Looking for Input on Live Cinema
Message-ID: <A8B7CF7D-D2F9-493C-9E23-16D6A7637850@commtom.com>

I am researching the practice of Live Cinema, for some writing that I  
am doing, and am looking for artists that do live AV who would be  
willing to answer some questions via e-mail.

Criteria for respondents:

1. Those who consider what they are doing to be "art" and feel their  
work is informed by contemporary art practices.

2. Those who perform within an "art" context (i.e. galleries, museums,  
media art festivals or other venues loosely defined as "art-venues.")

Please respond off-list and / or pass this on to anyone you might  
think would be interested. I will be pursuing publication of the  
paper, and will clear any use of responses with individual respondents.

Thanks,

David Fodel

-------------David Fodel-------------------
MFA Candidate/Graduate Instructor
------Electronic Media Art Design-----
----------University of Denver-----------
------http://www.davidfodel.com-----
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From jlipuma at yahoo.com  Fri Oct 30 16:47:08 2009
From: jlipuma at yahoo.com (Josephine Lipuma)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:47:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [microsound] Looking for Input on Live Cinema
In-Reply-To: <A8B7CF7D-D2F9-493C-9E23-16D6A7637850@commtom.com>
References: <A8B7CF7D-D2F9-493C-9E23-16D6A7637850@commtom.com>
Message-ID: <402838.89011.qm@web34204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

David, 
Post this to FaceBook, and be-friend me please.
Thanks so,
Josephine Lipuma




________________________________
From: devslashnull <dev at commtom.com>
To: microsound at microsound.org
Sent: Fri, October 30, 2009 2:26:19 PM
Subject: [microsound] Looking for Input on Live Cinema

I am researching the practice of Live Cinema, for some writing that I am doing, and am looking for artists that do live AV who would be willing to answer some questions via e-mail.

Criteria for respondents:

1. Those who consider what they are doing to be "art" and feel their work is informed by contemporary art practices.

2. Those who perform within an "art" context (i.e. galleries, museums, media art festivals or other venues loosely defined as "art-venues.")

Please respond off-list and / or pass this on to anyone you might think would be interested. I will be pursuing publication of the paper, and will clear any use of responses with individual respondents.

Thanks,

David Fodel

-------------David Fodel-------------------
MFA Candidate/Graduate Instructor
------Electronic Media Art Design-----
----------University of Denver-----------
------http://www.davidfodel.com-----


      
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From technohead3d at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 30 17:52:09 2009
From: technohead3d at googlemail.com (Adam Davis)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:52:09 +0000
Subject: [microsound] Birthday micropoem
In-Reply-To: <cde7886c0910271408y66c61834xc0902cbd088c327c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5badef3b0910270450p5d0cece1sde3e9d0f972aa4ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<cde7886c0910271408y66c61834xc0902cbd088c327c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5badef3b0910301452m1f1b6b2fk8602ac797b087c3f@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Gerardo!

Ah no worries. We could still exchange works and material
whenever, nonetheless :)
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