From js0000 at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 18:55:11 2009 From: js0000 at gmail.com (john saylor) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:55:11 -0500 Subject: [Microsound] ignore me Message-ID: just a test -- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ] From craque at craque.net Sat Jan 17 21:09:31 2009 From: craque at craque.net (craquemattic) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:09:31 -0800 Subject: [Microsound] [microsound] Max/Msp for Ableton Live In-Reply-To: <49723AD0.2070604@gmail.com> References: <2B23ACB4-B114-4D1D-8E5C-93311DBB829A@sympatico.ca> <496F90FB.8080802@gmail.com> <4970D44D.3070405@gmail.com> <49723AD0.2070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would have to agree here. Even looking at a piece of staff paper you are automatically assigned to the mechanism of traditional notation and what follows in terms of harmony and structure. By contrast, working in max or live, or whatever else sits between you and the actual creation of music, is as such. It's one reason I like to work so closely with improvisation, the voice, and direct sampling of materials: an attempt to capture the most raw musical experience I can. Herein also lies my argument that microsound (similar to Kim's ideas recently espoused) doesn't necessarilly imply computer music. On Jan 17, 2009, at 12:08, Visa Kuoppala wrote: > Michal Seta wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Visa Kuoppala > > wrote: >>> Also, surely you must notice how a lot of the UI design of Live >>> directs the >>> workflow towards pattern based composition (even when working in the >>> arrangement view)? >> "Readymade Solutions Require Readymade Problems; For Everything Else >> There Is PureData." - Mathieu Bouchard > > > Well, I really wouldn't buy that rhetoric either. The cliche that > PD, Max/MSP's and others are tabula rasas is clearly faulty logic. > PD too is a "readymade" (whatever that means) visual programming > environment whose internal logic heavily affects the problems you > set to solve with it and how you plan to solve them. I mean with > that logic an empty page ready for C-code would be the ultimate > tabula rasa for composition. In reality it's no more tabula rasa > than a blank piece of staff-paper. > > Ultimately, though, tabula rasas are both unattainable and even > undesired for composition work... > > Best, > > Visa > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org > http://www.microsound.org From c.reider at vuzhmusic.com Sat Jan 17 21:23:29 2009 From: c.reider at vuzhmusic.com (C.Reider) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:23:29 -0700 Subject: [Microsound] microsound doesn't necessarilly imply computer music In-Reply-To: References: <2B23ACB4-B114-4D1D-8E5C-93311DBB829A@sympatico.ca> <496F90FB.8080802@gmail.com> <4970D44D.3070405@gmail.com> <49723AD0.2070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7409f844cc3e84cb7db0a095634d59d3@vuzhmusic.com> Jeph Jerman's performances using nothing but unamplified seedpods, branches, pine cones and dried out cactuses might be an argument in favor of this c. reider .. . -- http://www.vuzhmusic.com On Jan 17, 2009, at 7:09 PM, craquemattic wrote: > It's one reason I like to work so closely with improvisation, the > voice, and direct sampling of materials: an attempt to capture the > most raw musical experience I can. Herein also lies my argument that > microsound (similar to Kim's ideas recently espoused) doesn't > necessarilly imply computer music. From roachboy at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 11:57:37 2009 From: roachboy at gmail.com (Stephen Hastings-King) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:57:37 -0500 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a5562340901180857r4ebe6f5ai272117f17e5fa79a@mail.gmail.com> thanks for this post, kim. i have been thinking about this question since the initial post was made. i wasn't interested by the clip because it seemed to me more or less traditional program music, the sort of thing that would have a score including sequences for foley guys who would provide appropriate clippety-cloppity sounds when the horses on which the fox hunters are riding zip across the pastoral environment just before the basses and tympani start a froth to announce a coming thunderstorm. the problem with that, beyond it's tedium, is that it presents a flatly representational surface at a point where such surfaces are themselves politically (and cognitively) a Problem. i think it's particularly difficult to make direct political statements through frameworks that see in representation, and the conceptual apparatus that enables it, an ideological problem. i thinks this generates problems not only for bourgeois forms of representation (the conceptual apparatus that you see made semi-material through television coverage of the world, the tight focus on particular sequences of events, the erasure of context, it's replacement with the voice-over which tells you what the sequence you're watching "really means" in terms which are synched in their arbitrariness to the arbitrariness of decontextualized factoid-reality...whence the operative power of the discourse of "terror") and its marxian inversion. i think the idea of "what's really happening" is a problem, one that opens onto ontological-register work---and newer forms of sonic organization can be framed as performing such work in that the enact alternative approaches to information and it's organization--but this material (i suppose---i can't think of a better term at the moment, even as i know this is not a good choice) doesn't operate itself as argument or demonstration. it requires the development of new analytic frames,built along what amounts to an alternate ontology, that can operate alongside new approaches to sound organization in a relation through which one type of activity extends and informs the other. and it seems to me that there is considerable distance to be traversed before such projects link to more conventional forms of politics, of action, if they do. it might be that the furthest "we" can go is to enact and conceptualize alternate ways of thinking and seeing----these may end up being self-referential---they may not issue into a way of thinking politics that we know about--or it might. either way, it seems to me there's an interesting set of adventures to be had, new modes of failure to be explored. i have trouble talking about gaza sometimes. it seems to me a massive confirmation of the ways fanon described the dynamics of colonialism as a process that corrodes occupier and occupied, that issues into a kind of psychotic space structured by types of pseudo-rationality. perhaps one could count the 400 fewer children who are alive in gaza after these past 3 weeks and arrange them as steps in a proof that leads in this direction. this seems to me to take you beyond folksongs that tell you earnestly that situation in the world x really sucks. stephen On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:03 PM, john saylor wrote: > hi > > so what are we talking about? > > [imagine droning sythesizers] > > ... gaza ... aesthetics ... marx ... compression ... failure ... > > [sythesizers off] > > it was all my mistake > > > i said: > >>> what is needed today is the effort to try and to look at things for > >>> what they really are. > > which is easily misread, and i kinda knew better ... what i wanted to > say is virtualy the same as you say here > > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Kim Cascone > wrote: > > - to see things for what 'they really are' requires an open mind since it > is > > our hanging on to the consensus that makes us uncomfortable when > presented > > with outlying data > > and especailly in regard to being presented with data. > > -- > \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ] > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org > http://www.microsound.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090118/62e497b2/attachment.htm From vze26m98 at optonline.net Sun Jan 18 17:37:54 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:37:54 -0500 Subject: [microsound] the framework of microsound conditions a certain expectation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090118173754015780.657bdfad@optonline.net> On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:29:53 -0800, Kim Cascone wrote: > in context of microsound or glitch: what does 'failure' mean? > mostly it is a lack of intersection between intent and expectation I think its worth pointing out that this lack of intersection is not a binary, but a continuum: there are many shades of "failure" between almost complete reception of intent, and non-recognition that a communication is taking place. And these varying shades of failure can occur in different measures among the components of a single work. > Godard (see: 'A Letter to Jane' on the Criterion 'Tout va Bien' DVD) > is a good example of a combined political statement and a > _fractured_ post-modern narrative I think the nightly network TV news would also qualify. What justifies its characterization as "real?" Certainly not the same clustering of reality fragments that characterize J. L. David's "Oath of the Horatiae," or Soderberg's recent film about Che. On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:57:37 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > i think it's particularly difficult to make direct... > statements through frameworks that see in representation, and the > conceptual apparatus that enables it, an ideological problem. (I removed the word "political" from your comment above, I think your observation is more general) As per the above, representation is always a problem. Some just construct a representation that suits the array of messages to be conveyed. One can always point out the problematics of communication, but isn't it something to get over, like the flu? Ideology isn't going to go away. Jill Dolan recounts in one of her theater essays her attempt to direct Wendy Wasserstein's "Heidi Chronicles," and counter its conservative feminist politics. But she remarks on how difficult it was to direct a production that subverted Wasserstein's text, particularly the humorous bits. Direct linguistic statements can be very powerful, in part because they are designed to overcome inadvertent (and willed) problematization. > and it seems to me that there is considerable distance to be > traversed before such projects link to more conventional forms of > politics, of action, if they do. > it might be that the furthest "we" can go is to enact and > conceptualize alternate ways of thinking and seeing----these may end > up being self-referential The distance, to my mind, is only as far as we are from politics. Brecht, for example, made very different claims for his work during the three major "eras" of his life: directly associated with a revolutionary movement in Weimar, building support for an anti-Fascist war in his American exile, and finally as a tolerated artist in the post-war GDR. He was insightful and honest enough not to falsely preserve previous claims when his social situation wasn't supportive of them. Art work is politically successful to the extent that it allies itself with an active political movement. As you point out, without that connection, it becomes self-referential: the default mode of contemporary bourgeois culture. Sadly, it doesn't help that in the U. S. there's very little institutionalized opposition that an artist can ally with. Best, Charles From kim at anechoicmedia.com Sun Jan 18 16:44:54 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:44:54 -0800 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone Message-ID: <624243DF-C8C4-4256-A259-7381BE87F80D@anechoicmedia.com> > thanks for this post, kim. > > i have been thinking about this question since the initial post was > made. i > wasn't interested by the clip because it seemed to me more or less > traditional program music, the sort of thing that would have a score > including sequences for foley guys who would provide appropriate > clippety-cloppity sounds when the horses on which the fox hunters > are riding > zip across the pastoral environment just before the basses and > tympani start > a froth to announce a coming thunderstorm. this format of propaganda takes many forms -- the slideshow with folksong seemed to have been born in the 60's - when multimedia slide- show presentations were all the rage [think elaborate worlds faire exhibits circa 1965 or so] I can remember seeing similar things on TV e.g. Smothers Brothers show the Vietnam war nurtured this style via 'protesters' or 'peaceniks' finding a way to express their views by appropriating techniques used in propaganda in fact there was an essay written about the semiotics of Jane Fonda's newspaper photo of her sitting in a tank with some VietCong - I don't remember the writer (Barthes, Sontag?) but I still think Godard was close to achieving an effective mix of politics and 'glitch' - i.e. the sudden, jarring collage of visuals and disembodied sound > the problem with that, beyond > it's tedium, is that it presents a flatly representational surface > at a > point where such surfaces are themselves politically (and > cognitively) a > Problem. this is the role of propaganda: to simplify/reduce complex subjects then categorize them into easily digestible labels and while the Gaza YouTube video was considered out of context for the microsound list it might have been the cartoon-like surface that led people to dismiss it out of hand also, there is a cultural naivete when being presented with 60's style politics - one that induces a feeling of 'embarrassment' for some although Obama seems to have resurrected a Web2.0 simulacra of this using the peace symbol and an abstracted 60's style poster art > i think it's particularly difficult to make direct political > statements > through frameworks that see in representation, and the conceptual > apparatus > that enables it, an ideological problem. this is why there is so little political statement in experimental music there have been some interesting attempts of political expression by Fredric Rzewski, Ultra-Red, Cardew, Art & Language, AMM, Gang of Four, Test Dept etc. but none have really taken hold of the publics imagination in any way that deconstructs 'false consciousness' see: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/55565/ gang_of_four_and_pop_music_as_marxist.html > i thinks this generates problems > not only for bourgeois forms of representation (the conceptual > apparatus > that you see made semi-material through television coverage of the > world, > the tight focus on particular sequences of events, the erasure of > context, > it's replacement with the voice-over which tells you what the sequence > you're watching "really means" in terms which are synched in their > arbitrariness to the arbitrariness of decontextualized > factoid-reality...whence the operative power of the discourse of > "terror") > and its marxian inversion. i think the idea of "what's really > happening" is > a problem, one that opens onto ontological-register work---and > newer forms > of sonic organization can be framed as performing such work in that > the > enact alternative approaches to information and it's organization-- > but this > material (i suppose---i can't think of a better term at the moment, > even as > i know this is not a good choice) doesn't operate itself as > argument or > demonstration. it requires the development of new analytic > frames,built > along what amounts to an alternate ontology, that can operate > alongside new > approaches to sound organization in a relation through which one > type of > activity extends and informs the other. the best political audio I've heard are the Chomsky lectures -- he seems to dig deep enough to get closer to what is 'really' going on > > and it seems to me that there is considerable distance to be traversed > before such projects link to more conventional forms of politics, > of action, > if they do. agreed -- many of them have never even left the gate so to speak much less arrived at any definitive link > it might be that the furthest "we" can go is to enact and > conceptualize > alternate ways of thinking and seeing very often though these 'think different' ways of seeing/thinking are rendered moot since any attempt to be outside the system (affording perspective) requires money/power which then places you back in that system its the age old paradox of political commentary > ----these may end up being > self-referential---they may not issue into a way of thinking > politics that > we know about--or it might. either way, it seems to me there's an > interesting set of adventures to be had, new modes of failure to be > explored. also agreed -- it's difficult to include political content in one's sound work given the context 'electronica' has: hedonistic, bourgeoisie, leisure, workers weekend catharsis...etc then 'electro-acoustic' music has an academia link and represents an intellectual class that is currently not in vogue in the US witness the rampant anti-intellectualism encountered here from time to time and this presents yet another conundrum: where to find a platform that hasn't been leached of its ability to transmit messages without being delivered coated in 'cartoon-sugar' on its way to the receiver (sorry for invoking this communications model - especially after pointing out that it is woefully inaccurate and simplistic) > > i have trouble talking about gaza sometimes. > it seems to me a massive confirmation of the ways fanon described the > dynamics of colonialism as a process that corrodes occupier and > occupied, > that issues into a kind of psychotic space structured by types of > pseudo-rationality. and it is exactly this psychotic space might be the place from where real political content can flow one excellent example was Thomas Ashcraft: 'The Sounds of Dogs Eating The Faces Off Of Corpses In Iraq' http://www.heliotown.com/Soundfields_From_Iraq_2007.html it is this psychotic space (think: 'Apocalypse Now') that is bolted on to the side of post-modernism's fractured narrative and one that could very well use microsound, glitch to help shape content the accident or concept of failure intersects with the concepts of disorientation, disembodiment brought about thru informational overload which also adds to the inability to 'know' reality via simulacra and mediation > perhaps one could count the 400 fewer children who are > alive in gaza after these past 3 weeks and arrange them as steps in > a proof > that leads in this direction. Gaza is a place of disorientation and psychosis - the children still alive are permanently scarred by this > > this seems to me to take you beyond folksongs that tell you > earnestly that > situation in the world x really sucks. yes - I guess what I was saying was that the YouTube video is a symptom of a larger machine - one that afford us all a privileged lifestyle, manipulated buying habits, predilections towards technological arts and objects, and leisure time to consume and produce artifacts made with this technology it is this very machine that churns out this content which provides a surplus of psychic insulation and mirrors the technique corporate media uses to direct our thoughts and opinions but that it found its way into the context of microsound is very interesting and raises many issues that are very worthy of discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090118/104bc7f2/attachment.htm From jcespinosa at aol.com Sun Jan 18 18:55:58 2009 From: jcespinosa at aol.com (jcespinosa at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:55:58 -0500 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone In-Reply-To: <624243DF-C8C4-4256-A259-7381BE87F80D@anechoicmedia.com> References: <624243DF-C8C4-4256-A259-7381BE87F80D@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <8CB47DF7182521C-FB0-93B@WEBMAIL-MY36.sysops.aol.com> great exchange. -----Original Message----- From: Kim Cascone To: microsound at microsound.org Sent: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 4:44 pm Subject: [microsound] gaza drone thanks for this post, kim. i have been thinking about this question since the initial post was made.? i wasn't interested by the clip because it seemed to me more or less traditional program music, the sort of thing that would have a score including sequences for foley guys who would provide appropriate clippety-cloppity sounds when the horses on which the fox hunters are riding zip across the pastoral environment just before the basses and tympani start a froth to announce a coming thunderstorm. this format of propaganda takes many forms -- the slideshow with folksong seemed to have been born in the 60's - when multimedia slide-show presentations were all the rage [think elaborate worlds faire exhibits circa 1965 or so] I can remember seeing similar things on TV e.g. Smothers Brothers show the Vietnam war nurtured this style via 'protesters' or 'peaceniks' finding a way to express their views by appropriating techniques used in propaganda? in fact there was an essay written about the semiotics of Jane Fonda's newspaper photo of her sitting in a tank with some VietCong - I don't remember the writer (Barthes, Sontag?)? but I still think Godard was close to achieving an effective mix of politics and 'glitch' - i.e. the sudden, jarring collage of visuals and disembodied sound ? ?the problem with that, beyond it's tedium, is that it presents a flatly representational surface at a point where such surfaces are themselves politically (and cognitively) a Problem. this is the role of propaganda: to simplify/reduce complex subjects then categorize them into easily?digestible?labels and while the Gaza YouTube video was considered out of context for the microsound list it might have been the cartoon-like surface that led people to dismiss it out of hand also, there is a cultural naivete?when being presented with 60's style politics - one that induces a feeling of 'embarrassment' for some although Obama seems to have resurrected a Web2.0 simulacra of this using the peace symbol and an abstracted 60's style poster art? ? i think it's particularly difficult to make direct political statements through frameworks that see in representation, and the conceptual apparatus that enables it, an ideological problem.? this is why there is so little political statement in experimental music there have been some interesting?attempts?of political expression by? Fredric Rzewski, Ultra-Red, Cardew, Art & Language, AMM, Gang of Four, Test Dept etc.? but none have really taken hold of the publics imagination in any way that deconstructs 'false consciousness'? see: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/55565/gang_of_four_and_pop_music_as_marxist.html i thinks this generates problems not only for bourgeois forms of representation (the conceptual apparatus that you see made semi-material through television coverage of the world, the tight focus on particular sequences of events, the erasure of context, it's replacement with the voice-over which tells you what the sequence you're watching "really means" in terms which are synched in their arbitrariness to the arbitrariness of decontextualized factoid-reality...whence the operative power of the discourse of "terror") and its marxian inversion.? i think the idea of "what's really happening" is a problem, one that opens onto ontological-register work---and newer forms of sonic organization can be framed as performing such work in that the enact alternative approaches to information and it's organization--but this material (i suppose---i can't think of a better term at the moment, even as i know this is not a good choice) doesn't operate itself as argument or demonstration.? it requires the development of new analytic frames,built along what amounts to an alternate ontology, that can operate alongside new approaches to sound organization in a relation through which one type of activity extends and informs the other. the best political audio I've heard are the Chomsky?lectures -- he seems to dig deep enough to get closer to what is 'really' going on and it seems to me that there is considerable distance to be traversed before such projects link to more conventional forms of politics, of action, if they do. agreed -- many of them have never even left the gate so to speak much less arrived at any definitive link it might be that the furthest "we" can go is to enact and conceptualize alternate ways of thinking and seeing very often though these 'think different' ways of seeing/thinking are rendered moot since any attempt to be outside the system (affording?perspective) requires money/power which then places you back in that system its the age old paradox of political commentary ?? ----these may end up being self-referential---they may not issue into a way of thinking politics that we know about--or it might.? either way, it seems to me there's an interesting set of adventures to be had, new modes of failure to be explored. also agreed -- it's difficult to include political content in one's sound work given the context 'electronica' has: hedonistic,?bourgeoisie, leisure, workers weekend?catharsis...etc then 'electro-acoustic' music has an academia link and represents an intellectual class that is currently not in vogue in the US witness the rampant anti-intellectualism encountered here from time to time and this presents yet another conundrum: where to find a platform that hasn't been leached of its ability to transmit messages without being delivered coated in 'cartoon-sugar' on its way to the receiver (sorry for invoking this communications model - especially after pointing out that it is woefully?inaccurate?and simplistic) ? i have trouble talking about gaza sometimes. it seems to me a massive confirmation of the ways fanon described the dynamics of colonialism as a process that corrodes occupier and occupied, that issues into a kind of psychotic space structured by types of pseudo-rationality.? and it is exactly this psychotic space might be the place from where real?political?content can flow one excellent example was?Thomas Ashcraft: 'The Sounds of Dogs Eating The Faces Off Of Corpses In Iraq' http://www.heliotown.com/Soundfields_From_Iraq_2007.html it is this psychotic space (think: 'Apocalypse?Now') that is bolted on to the side of post-modernism's fractured narrative and one that could very well use microsound, glitch to help shape content the accident or concept of failure intersects with the concepts of disorientation, disembodiment brought about thru informational overload which also adds to the inability to 'know' reality via simulacra and mediation? ? perhaps one could count the 400 fewer children who are alive in gaza after these past 3 weeks and arrange them as steps in a proof that leads in this direction. Gaza is a place of disorientation and psychosis - the children still alive are permanently scarred by this? this seems to me to take you beyond folksongs that tell you earnestly that situation in the world x really sucks. yes - I guess what I was saying was that the YouTube video is a symptom of a larger machine - one that afford us all a?privileged?lifestyle,?manipulated?buying habits,?predilections?towards technological arts and objects, and leisure time to consume and produce artifacts made with this technology it is this very machine that churns out this content which provides a surplus of psychic insulation and mirrors the technique corporate media uses to direct our thoughts and opinions but that it found its way into the context of microsound is very interesting and?raises?many issues that are very worthy of discussion = _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090118/e12e1512/attachment-0001.htm From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Sun Jan 18 19:49:54 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:49:54 -0500 Subject: [microsound] max/msp on live Message-ID: <37A9A2F9-3E2A-4922-BAF9-35A0F6855EDA@sympatico.ca> http://www.cycling74.com/story/2009/1/15/112631/799 From algomantra at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 20:36:34 2009 From: algomantra at gmail.com (AlgoMantra) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:06:34 +0530 Subject: [microsound] insekta Message-ID: <6171110d0901181736v5cb7e12ej1cb1b37463540966@mail.gmail.com> insekta is a project of mine about making music for insects, by understanding how they perceive and use sound. i'm hoping someday i'll have a large audience of cicadas for whom i could translate the works of Bach using microsound-fu... http://algomantra.blogspot.com/2009/01/insekta-post-tribal-trance-music.html "cockroach mutiny" makes for a cool ringtone apparently. dj fadereu ------- -.- 1/f ))) --. ------- ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/17a8518b/attachment.htm From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Sun Jan 18 21:49:58 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:49:58 -0500 Subject: [microsound] [microsound-announce] 12k ripped off on U2 album cover In-Reply-To: <4973BD1C.1050306@andrew-duke.com> References: <4973BD1C.1050306@andrew-duke.com> Message-ID: negalivland must be laughing their asses off right now:) On 18-Jan-09, at 6:37 PM, Andrew Duke wrote: > http://12kblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/17/u2-album-cover/ > -- > Andrew Duke In The Mix weekly mixshow (est. 1987), excl. DJ mixes, > PAs, > interviews: > http://cognitionaudioworks.com/AndrewDukeInTheMix.html > sound design and music content provider: > http://cognitionaudioworks.com/sounddesignandmusic.html > http://myspace.com/andrewduke > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1614666166 > > Andrew Duke Cognition Audioworks > 57 Hastings Drive Dartmouth NS Canada B2Y 2C7 > _______________________________________________ > microsound-announce mailing list > microsound-announce at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce > From roachboy at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 22:46:09 2009 From: roachboy at gmail.com (Stephen Hastings-King) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:46:09 -0500 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone In-Reply-To: <8CB47DF7182521C-FB0-93B@WEBMAIL-MY36.sysops.aol.com> References: <624243DF-C8C4-4256-A259-7381BE87F80D@anechoicmedia.com> <8CB47DF7182521C-FB0-93B@WEBMAIL-MY36.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3a5562340901181946r1e774525u89d43fb761c293b8@mail.gmail.com> thanks for the interesting responses. i'm thinking about them and will maybe write more tomorrow. i like the gang of four piece. i've been writing a series on partial-determinist ontology and sound--a couple of them just came out here: http://nome.unak.is/nome2/issues/vol3_2/ the longer one (the spurious landscape) is a full project----it's long--but i'd be most interested to hear what you make of it. the other is more a process piece, working my way into cognitive linguistics. i've been looking to develop ways to feed this stuff back onto itself. this is as far as i've managed to get. interesting stuff, though--i'll send along more when i'm more awake. stephen On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 6:55 PM, wrote: > great exchange. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kim Cascone > To: microsound at microsound.org > Sent: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 4:44 pm > Subject: [microsound] gaza drone > > thanks for this post, kim. > > i have been thinking about this question since the initial post was > made. i > wasn't interested by the clip because it seemed to me more or less > traditional program music, the sort of thing that would have a score > including sequences for foley guys who would provide appropriate > clippety-cloppity sounds when the horses on which the fox hunters are > riding > zip across the pastoral environment just before the basses and tympani > start > a froth to announce a coming thunderstorm. > > this format of propaganda takes many forms -- the slideshow with folksong > seemed to have been born in the 60's - when multimedia slide-show > presentations were all the rage > [think elaborate worlds faire exhibits circa 1965 or so] > I can remember seeing similar things on TV e.g. Smothers Brothers show > the Vietnam war nurtured this style via 'protesters' or 'peaceniks' finding > a way to express their views by appropriating techniques used in propaganda > in fact there was an essay written about the semiotics of Jane Fonda's > newspaper photo of her sitting in a tank with some VietCong - I don't > remember the writer (Barthes, Sontag?) > but I still think Godard was close to achieving an effective mix of > politics and 'glitch' - i.e. the sudden, jarring collage of visuals and > disembodied sound > > > the problem with that, beyond > it's tedium, is that it presents a flatly representational surface at a > point where such surfaces are themselves politically (and cognitively) a > Problem. > > this is the role of propaganda: to simplify/reduce complex subjects then > categorize them into easily digestible labels > and while the Gaza YouTube video was considered out of context for the > microsound list > it might have been the cartoon-like surface that led people to dismiss it > out of hand > also, there is a cultural naivete when being presented with 60's style > politics - one that induces a feeling of 'embarrassment' for some > although Obama seems to have resurrected a Web2.0 simulacra of this using > the peace symbol and an abstracted 60's style poster art > > > i think it's particularly difficult to make direct political statements > through frameworks that see in representation, and the conceptual apparatus > that enables it, an ideological problem. > > this is why there is so little political statement in experimental music > there have been some interesting attempts of political expression by > Fredric Rzewski, Ultra-Red, Cardew, Art & Language, AMM, Gang of Four, Test > Dept etc. > but none have really taken hold of the publics imagination in any way that > deconstructs 'false consciousness' > > see: > > http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/55565/gang_of_four_and_pop_music_as_marxist.html > > i thinks this generates problems > not only for bourgeois forms of representation (the conceptual apparatus > that you see made semi-material through television coverage of the world, > the tight focus on particular sequences of events, the erasure of context, > it's replacement with the voice-over which tells you what the sequence > you're watching "really means" in terms which are synched in their > arbitrariness to the arbitrariness of decontextualized > factoid-reality...whence the operative power of the discourse of "terror") > and its marxian inversion. i think the idea of "what's really happening" > is > a problem, one that opens onto ontological-register work---and newer forms > of sonic organization can be framed as performing such work in that the > enact alternative approaches to information and it's organization--but this > material (i suppose---i can't think of a better term at the moment, even as > i know this is not a good choice) doesn't operate itself as argument or > demonstration. it requires the development of new analytic frames,built > along what amounts to an alternate ontology, that can operate alongside new > approaches to sound organization in a relation through which one type of > activity extends and informs the other. > > the best political audio I've heard are the Chomsky lectures -- he seems to > dig deep enough to get closer to what is 'really' going on > > > and it seems to me that there is considerable distance to be traversed > before such projects link to more conventional forms of politics, of > action, > if they do. > > agreed -- many of them have never even left the gate so to speak much less > arrived at any definitive link > > it might be that the furthest "we" can go is to enact and conceptualize > alternate ways of thinking and seeing > > very often though these 'think different' ways of seeing/thinking are > rendered moot since any attempt to be outside the system > (affording perspective) requires money/power which then places you back in > that system > its the age old paradox of political commentary > > ----these may end up being > self-referential---they may not issue into a way of thinking politics that > we know about--or it might. either way, it seems to me there's an > interesting set of adventures to be had, new modes of failure to be > explored. > > also agreed -- it's difficult to include political content in one's sound > work given the context 'electronica' has: hedonistic, bourgeoisie, leisure, > workers weekend catharsis...etc > then 'electro-acoustic' music has an academia link and represents an > intellectual class that is currently not in vogue in the US > witness the rampant anti-intellectualism encountered here from time to time > and this presents yet another conundrum: where to find a platform that > hasn't been leached of its ability to transmit messages without being > delivered coated in 'cartoon-sugar' on its way to the receiver (sorry for > invoking this communications model - especially after pointing out that it > is woefully inaccurate and simplistic) > > > > i have trouble talking about gaza sometimes. > it seems to me a massive confirmation of the ways fanon described the > dynamics of colonialism as a process that corrodes occupier and occupied, > that issues into a kind of psychotic space structured by types of > pseudo-rationality. > > and it is exactly this psychotic space might be the place from where > real political content can flow > one excellent example was Thomas Ashcraft: 'The Sounds of Dogs Eating The > Faces Off Of Corpses In Iraq' > *http://www.heliotown.com/Soundfields_From_Iraq_2007.html* > * > * > it is this psychotic space (think: 'Apocalypse Now') that is bolted on to > the side of post-modernism's fractured narrative > and one that could very well use microsound, glitch to help shape content > the accident or concept of failure intersects with the concepts of > disorientation, disembodiment brought about thru informational overload > which also adds to the inability to 'know' reality via simulacra and > mediation > > > > perhaps one could count the 400 fewer children who are > alive in gaza after these past 3 weeks and arrange them as steps in a proof > that leads in this direction. > > Gaza is a place of disorientation and psychosis - the children still alive > are permanently scarred by this > > > > this seems to me to take you beyond folksongs that tell you earnestly > that > situation in the world x really sucks. > > yes - I guess what I was saying was that the YouTube video is a symptom of > a larger machine - one that afford us all > a privileged lifestyle, manipulated buying habits, predilections towards > technological arts and objects, and leisure time to consume and produce > artifacts made with this technology > > it is this very machine that churns out this content which provides a > surplus of psychic insulation and mirrors the technique corporate media uses > to direct our thoughts and opinions > but that it found its way into the context of microsound is very > interesting and raises many issues that are very worthy of discussion > > > > > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > ------------------------------ > Which stars will make the biggest headlines in 2009? Get Hollywood > predictions, celebrity holiday photos and more with the PopEater Toolbar. > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090118/63561307/attachment-0001.htm From cyborgk at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 22:34:01 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:34:01 -0600 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone In-Reply-To: <8CB47DF7182521C-FB0-93B@WEBMAIL-MY36.sysops.aol.com> References: <624243DF-C8C4-4256-A259-7381BE87F80D@anechoicmedia.com> <8CB47DF7182521C-FB0-93B@WEBMAIL-MY36.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901181934u3c7ffe26n3036b07f87a9c8f4@mail.gmail.com> How can you assume we are privileged just because we have internet access? A year ago I had a $50,000 a year job. Now I have $5 to get by for a whole week, including all food and transportation. Is access to youtube a "privilege"? Really??? Is the content I produce really a symptom of a larger machine? How do you know it's a symptom and not a struggle against the machine? Just playing devil's advocate, since microsound list seemed to disappear for a couple months and suddenly is back. ~David > -----Original Message----- > From: Kim Cascone > To: microsound at microsound.org > Sent: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 4:44 pm > Subject: [microsound] gaza drone > yes - I guess what I was saying was that the YouTube video is a symptom of a > larger machine - one that afford us all > a privileged lifestyle, manipulated buying habits, predilections towards > technological arts and objects, and leisure time to consume and produce > artifacts made with this technology > it is this very machine that churns out this content which provides a > surplus of psychic insulation and mirrors the technique corporate media uses > to direct our thoughts and opinions > but that it found its way into the context of microsound is very interesting > and raises many issues that are very worthy of discussion > > > > > > = > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > ________________________________ > Which stars will make the biggest headlines in 2009? Get Hollywood > predictions, celebrity holiday photos and more with the PopEater Toolbar. > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > From time4cookies at hotmail.com Mon Jan 19 02:56:56 2009 From: time4cookies at hotmail.com (greg g) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:56:56 +0000 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > where to find a platform that> hasn't been leached of its ability to transmit messages without being> delivered coated in 'cartoon-sugar' on its way to the receiver (sorry for> invoking this communications model - especially after pointing out that it> is woefully inaccurate and simplistic) the internet probably doesn't qualify. part of running a "free" but controlled democracy involves commodifying all threatening forms of media, art, and communication, and would-be artists basically pacify themselves, no overt oppression required. it's frustrating as everyone spouts opinions without any real firsthand experience. i agree with kim's earlier insightful message about technology. how to even begin? sometimes daily life is such a bog, it's nearly impossible to overcome that to even consider some type of true connection or difference halfway around the world, things are too isolated where it matters and too attached where it's already been milked of meaning (namely, technology-based communication), and i'm sure this current status quo is ideal for anyone with a hand in western neo-imperialistic interests. we're all guilty of this by accepting the technological disconnect lifestyle. any advance in society must be sold to the public as a disgusting commodity and business strategy the way the "green" movement has been--even if it's for the good, it's just too ineffectual in the long run, only people taking it to heart for its own good, i would argue, will be able to create true change, something commodification doesn't do, and there doesn't seem to be any alternative platform for fostering change en masse besides this approach. as artists, we have a duty to present our work using non-commodified mediums to foster alternate approaches to dispersing real social change, and myspace isn't one of them, i'm sorry to say. nobody has successfully subverted it the way earlier post-digital mediums have been. a positive note, i really appreciate the morbid soundfields from iraq. excellent work. i suppose some might argue that the internet, via video, etc, makes the war palpable in the way television did for vietnam, but clearly there isn't the same backlash going on in the last eight years that happened then--of those, that generation became a commodity and self-parody shortly after that achievement, and it's possible that that type of rebellion isn't feasible any longer. creativity must evolve, and medium is part of that evolution, youtube and myspace aren't going to cut it. i'm also excited about eno's earlier op-ed piece. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/7256cf99/attachment.htm From peterworth at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 04:26:40 2009 From: peterworth at gmail.com (Peter Worth) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:26:40 +0000 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <703a25730901190126t61895467s8a1a24e9b6cb4087@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 7:56 AM, greg g wrote: > as artists, we have a duty to present our work using non-commodified > mediums to foster alternate approaches to dispersing real social change, and > myspace isn't one of them, i'm sorry to say. nobody has successfully > subverted it the way earlier post-digital mediums have been. > > what are the earlier post digital mediums? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/7b6904f8/attachment.htm From vze26m98 at optonline.net Mon Jan 19 06:33:41 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 06:33:41 -0500 Subject: [microsound] gaza drone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090119063341597775.0c818f50@optonline.net> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:56:56 +0000, greg g wrote: > any advance in society must be sold to the public as a disgusting > commodity and business strategy the way the "green" movement has > been--even if it's for the good, it's just too ineffectual in the > long run, only people taking it to heart for its own good, i would > argue, will be able to create true change, something commodification > doesn't do, and there doesn't seem to be any alternative platform for > fostering change en masse besides this approach. I think you answer your question a little later in your message, but yes, the systems that bring us together "en masse" (or as Debord would say, "together in our isolation") are big, costly monuments. It will take a lot to build up something equivalent, but representing an alternative. And that building process will be contested at every step. Certainly a very local approach is possible: a small "audience" or collective where a musical culture can actually reflect and support positive social goals. At this point in time, however, that seems like self-condemnation into obscurity, an abandonment of class-comfort and the very real seduction consumer goods. On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:44:54 -0800, Kim Cascone wrote: > this is why there is so little political statement in experimental music > there have been some interesting attempts of political expression... > but none have really taken hold of the publics imagination in any way > that deconstructs 'false consciousness' (I missed this statement on first read, thanks to Stephen for pointing it out.) I'd venture that the Gang of Four certainly took hold of a public's imagination. Your other examaples, probably much smaller "publics." I'd argue that quite a large segment of the public deconstructs false consciouness. Aren't the humanities departments of the global university system one big deconstruction network? And how about all those Wal-mart, Starbucks, etc. workers that have to be available full-time, but can't seem to get more than half-time schedules out of the corporation? I think the issue is that false consciousness hasn't translated itself into concerted strategic action. The world is like a jigsaw puzzle that's only a third or a quarter finished. And under these circumstances, I'm reminded of the Brechtian hero who simply persists. For Brecht, it's the drop of water that eventually wears down the stone. Nothing to be ashamed of there... Best, Charles From gary at meterpool.com Mon Jan 19 09:41:56 2009 From: gary at meterpool.com (Gary R. Weisberg) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:41:56 -0500 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> Kim Cascone wrote: > > there is a rich body of Marxist discourse concerning aesthetics and it > is a shame that only a few on this list can engage in this sort of > discourse Kim- for those of us not properly initiated, beyond some familiarity with Adorno and Brecht, how about a reading list? Don't isolate - educate. Gary > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org > http://www.microsound.org > From vze26m98 at optonline.net Mon Jan 19 10:01:25 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:01:25 -0500 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> References: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> Message-ID: <20090119100125921247.6f6ee3b6@optonline.net> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:41:56 -0500, Gary R. Weisberg wrote: > how about a reading list? I posted a bunch of Stefan Morawski's writing up on the microsound server a few years back. You could also try Terry Eagleton's "Ideology of the Aesthetic." Also anything by Raymond Williams. There's lots more and I'm sure Kim would have very different recommendations. Best, Charles From dfm888 at optonline.net Mon Jan 19 10:10:02 2009 From: dfm888 at optonline.net (David Maier) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:10:02 -0500 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> References: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2009, at 9:41 AM, Gary R. Weisberg wrote: > Kim Cascone wrote: >> >> there is a rich body of Marxist discourse concerning aesthetics and >> it >> is a shame that only a few on this list can engage in this sort of >> discourse > Kim- for those of us not properly initiated, beyond some familiarity > with Adorno and Brecht, how about a reading list? > Don't isolate - educate. There's a good collection from Verso called Aesthetics and Politics ? it's got Adorno and Brecht, but also Lukacs, Benjamin, and Ernst Bloch. Some good back-and-forths. From craque at craque.net Mon Jan 19 11:29:39 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:29:39 -0800 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> References: <49749134.9090608@meterpool.com> Message-ID: <4974AA73.4000301@craque.net> Yeah, I'll have to chime in with Gary here, I have a full-time non-music job and unfortunately don't have the spare time outside of music making to research exactly WHICH of these writings will lift me out of shame. Many many many good words exist on the microsound server, perhaps someone can give pointers for good starting places? -matt Gary R. Weisberg wrote: > Kim Cascone wrote: >> there is a rich body of Marxist discourse concerning aesthetics and it >> is a shame that only a few on this list can engage in this sort of >> discourse > Kim- for those of us not properly initiated, beyond some familiarity > with Adorno and Brecht, how about a reading list? > Don't isolate - educate. > > Gary >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >> http://www.microsound.org >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From kim at anechoicmedia.com Mon Jan 19 12:22:39 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:22:39 -0800 Subject: [microsound] McDemocracy Message-ID: > part of running a "free" but controlled democracy involves > commodifying all threatening forms of media this is not 'free' democracy - this is state capitalism, corporatocracy or fascism if 'social control' is engaged it is the power elite who wields this weapon and 'power over' someone takes the concept of 'free' out of the mix From craque at craque.net Mon Jan 19 13:03:24 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:03:24 -0800 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too inflexible. And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can get, uh, "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that I'd rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work flow, maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many cases I have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't encounter in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the point that I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will force me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to accomplish musically. It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you get your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use these software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm interested in at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software than a grassroots musician does. In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the creation of the software and not the making of music. This is probably a hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create are immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks will friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. Personally, I feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter Live has gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily confused looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use it. Neil Clopton wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, > wrote: > > > > Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in > > 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. > > > I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. > > > Just because it is > > capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that > > the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be > > discounted without question. > > > I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and > ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a > full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. > > -- > DJ Dual Core's Blog > http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org > http://www.microsound.org From kuszynski at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 13:07:54 2009 From: kuszynski at gmail.com (Michael Kuszynski) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:07:54 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> Message-ID: <35d78f5c0901191007s336a4ef9od18edfe19cfc7b7f@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have any insight on why bezier automation curves are not a feature within Live? Seems like such an elementary DAW feature. Version 8 appears to finally offer crossfading. They seem to add a lot of whiz-bang features, and leave out crucial ones. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:03 PM, CraqueMat wrote: > I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. > > I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember > before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's > multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too inflexible. > > And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can get, uh, > "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that I'd > rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. > > I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work flow, > maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm > playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many cases I > have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't encounter > in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the point that > I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will force > me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't > complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to accomplish > musically. > > It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several > hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you get > your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use these > software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people > actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other > words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm interested in > at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying > around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird > economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software > piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this > part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to > me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software > than a grassroots musician does. > > In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are > not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they > get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated > that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the > creation of the software and not the making of music. This is probably a > hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create are > immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). > > Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks will > friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know > it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, > and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. Personally, I > feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a > particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a > preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter Live has > gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily confused > looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY > plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use it. > > Neil Clopton wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, > > wrote: >> >> >> > Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >> > 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >> >> >> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >> >> > Just because it is >> > capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >> > the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >> > discounted without question. >> >> >> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a >> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >> >> -- >> DJ Dual Core's Blog >> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >> http://www.microsound.org > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -- Michael Kuszynski kuszynski at gmail.com www.planerecordings.com New York, NY From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Mon Jan 19 13:22:36 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:22:36 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <35d78f5c0901191007s336a4ef9od18edfe19cfc7b7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <35d78f5c0901191007s336a4ef9od18edfe19cfc7b7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: that's really the only big one left to do... On 19-Jan-09, at 1:07 PM, Michael Kuszynski wrote: > Does anyone have any insight on why bezier automation curves are not a > feature within Live? > > Seems like such an elementary DAW feature. > > Version 8 appears to finally offer crossfading. > > They seem to add a lot of whiz-bang features, and leave out crucial > ones. > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:03 PM, CraqueMat wrote: >> I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. >> >> I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember >> before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's >> multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too >> inflexible. >> >> And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can >> get, uh, >> "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that >> I'd >> rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. >> >> I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work >> flow, >> maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm >> playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many >> cases I >> have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't >> encounter >> in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the >> point that >> I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will >> force >> me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't >> complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to >> accomplish >> musically. >> >> It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several >> hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until >> you get >> your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use >> these >> software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people >> actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other >> words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm >> interested in >> at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying >> around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird >> economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know >> software >> piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is >> this >> part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it >> feels to >> me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software >> than a grassroots musician does. >> >> In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are >> not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like >> they >> get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated >> that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the >> creation of the software and not the making of music. This is >> probably a >> hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to >> create are >> immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). >> >> Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP >> folks will >> friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know >> it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it >> religiously, >> and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. >> Personally, I >> feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a >> particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may >> be a >> preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter >> Live has >> gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily >> confused >> looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY >> plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to >> use it. >> >> Neil Clopton wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >>>> 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >>> >>> >>> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >>> >>>> Just because it is >>>> capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >>>> the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >>>> discounted without question. >>> >>> >>> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >>> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has >>> become a >>> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >>> >>> -- >>> DJ Dual Core's Blog >>> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >>> http://www.microsound.org >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > > > > -- > Michael Kuszynski > kuszynski at gmail.com > www.planerecordings.com > New York, NY > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From kuszynski at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 13:24:29 2009 From: kuszynski at gmail.com (Michael Kuszynski) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:24:29 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <35d78f5c0901191007s336a4ef9od18edfe19cfc7b7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35d78f5c0901191024g33f7ab7eud1258b6edc724a83@mail.gmail.com> is it really that big? If they can make a whiz-bang-doo vocoder... On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Graham Miller wrote: > that's really the only big one left to do... > > On 19-Jan-09, at 1:07 PM, Michael Kuszynski wrote: > >> Does anyone have any insight on why bezier automation curves are not a >> feature within Live? >> >> Seems like such an elementary DAW feature. >> >> Version 8 appears to finally offer crossfading. >> >> They seem to add a lot of whiz-bang features, and leave out crucial >> ones. >> >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:03 PM, CraqueMat wrote: >>> I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. >>> >>> I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember >>> before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's >>> multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too >>> inflexible. >>> >>> And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can >>> get, uh, >>> "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that >>> I'd >>> rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. >>> >>> I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work >>> flow, >>> maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm >>> playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many >>> cases I >>> have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't >>> encounter >>> in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the >>> point that >>> I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will >>> force >>> me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't >>> complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to >>> accomplish >>> musically. >>> >>> It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several >>> hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until >>> you get >>> your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use >>> these >>> software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people >>> actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other >>> words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm >>> interested in >>> at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying >>> around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird >>> economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know >>> software >>> piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is >>> this >>> part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it >>> feels to >>> me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software >>> than a grassroots musician does. >>> >>> In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are >>> not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like >>> they >>> get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated >>> that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the >>> creation of the software and not the making of music. This is >>> probably a >>> hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to >>> create are >>> immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). >>> >>> Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP >>> folks will >>> friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know >>> it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it >>> religiously, >>> and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. >>> Personally, I >>> feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a >>> particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may >>> be a >>> preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter >>> Live has >>> gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily >>> confused >>> looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY >>> plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to >>> use it. >>> >>> Neil Clopton wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >>>>> 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >>>> >>>> >>>> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >>>> >>>>> Just because it is >>>>> capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >>>>> the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >>>>> discounted without question. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >>>> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has >>>> become a >>>> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> DJ Dual Core's Blog >>>> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> microsound mailing list >>>> microsound at microsound.org >>>> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >>>> http://www.microsound.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Michael Kuszynski >> kuszynski at gmail.com >> www.planerecordings.com >> New York, NY >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -- Michael Kuszynski kuszynski at gmail.com www.planerecordings.com New York, NY From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Mon Jan 19 13:27:09 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:27:09 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> Message-ID: $500 is extremely reasonable for the software... and i buy everything that is on my hard drive. there are a ton of less expensive options as well for live, including the LE and free lite versions, not to mention their generous trial demo versions... g. p.s. there are limitless ways to use live. it's not all about 4/4 techno loops. use your imagination. i can't think of any 'DAW' (which live is and isn't) that encourages a more customizable and individualistic user experience. no two people use this software the same way. > > It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several > hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you > get > your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use > these > software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people > actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other > words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm > interested in > at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying > around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird > economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software > piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this > part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to > me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software > than a grassroots musician does. > > In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are > not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they > get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated > that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the > creation of the software and not the making of music. This is > probably a > hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create > are > immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). > > Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks > will > friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know > it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, > and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. > Personally, I > feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a > particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a > preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter > Live has > gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily > confused > looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY > plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use > it. > > Neil Clopton wrote: >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, > > wrote: >> >> >>> Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >>> 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >> >> >> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >> >>> Just because it is >>> capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >>> the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >>> discounted without question. >> >> >> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a >> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >> >> -- >> DJ Dual Core's Blog >> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >> http://www.microsound.org > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From damian at frey.co.nz Mon Jan 19 13:43:06 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:43:06 +0100 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> Message-ID: <4974C9BA.2070100@frey.co.nz> Graham Miller wrote: > p.s. there are limitless ways to use live. it's not all about 4/4 > techno loops. use your imagination. i can't think of any 'DAW' (which > live is and isn't) that encourages a more customizable and > individualistic user experience. no two people use this software the > same way. are you working for them? this is some great marketing... -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From kim at anechoicmedia.com Mon Jan 19 13:44:01 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:44:01 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' Message-ID: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> > Kim- for those of us not properly initiated, beyond some familiarity > with Adorno and Brecht, how about a reading list? > Don't isolate - educate. like Tad pointed out there is a wealth of texts that have made their way onto the microsound repository over the years thoughts: Terry Eagleton is a good place to start as is Adorno, Marcuse, LeFebvre, Gramsci and Benjamin I highly recommend Adorno's 'The Culture Industry' - but please forgive his views on jazz - i.e. don't throw the baby out with the bath-water see if you can find a copy of 'Marxism and Art' by Maynard Solomon - pub 1974 by Vintage Books - long out of print but a good place for getting your feet wet this excellent collection of essays started me thinking about the intersection of politics and art while in music school there is a short excerpt from 'A Primer on Marxist Aesthetics' by Macdonald Daly on the server that I put up a few years ago - sadly the full work is out of print and Tad also mentioned the Morawski texts he placed up on the server - which I haven't gotten around to reading while I was in Istanbul a friend of mine handed me a thick reprint by Henry Klumpenhouwer titled 'Late Capitalism, Lat Marxism and the Study of Music' which is very interesting piece I would also recommend the cannon of Situationist works by Debord and Vaneigem - some of which are also on the server I'd start with the server and let the bibilio's be your road map tip: that piece on the Gang of Four is also a very good and insightful read that should get you started FWIW: when debating a Marxist point of view on this list I have often suggested that someone should read Adorno which is usually met with snarky rejoinders by the anti-intellectual subset of this list same as it ever was -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/453d816d/attachment.htm From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Mon Jan 19 14:01:06 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:01:06 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4974C9BA.2070100@frey.co.nz> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <4974C9BA.2070100@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: i wish! i'd love to land a job at ableton:) they need a toronto office though... maybe i could head that? ;) On 19-Jan-09, at 1:43 PM, Damian Stewart wrote: > Graham Miller wrote: > >> p.s. there are limitless ways to use live. it's not all about 4/4 >> techno loops. use your imagination. i can't think of any 'DAW' (which >> live is and isn't) that encourages a more customizable and >> individualistic user experience. no two people use this software the >> same way. > > are you working for them? this is some great marketing... > > -- > damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz > frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From craque at craque.net Mon Jan 19 14:03:58 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:03:58 -0800 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> Message-ID: <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> Graham Miller wrote: > $500 is extremely reasonable for the software... and i buy everything > that is on my hard drive. there are a ton of less expensive options > as well for live, including the LE and free lite versions, not to > mention their generous trial demo versions... Admittedly the pricing complaint is more of an industry-wide thing, not limited to Ableton products. But I need a fully featured DAW, not a "free" or "lite" version. Another issue here, like I mentioned in my original post, is my personal problem with getting way too lost in configuration and management that gets in the way of actually making any music. I don't necessarily WANT such a highly customizable experience, because a great deal my music making activities happen away from the mixing console / DAW. > p.s. there are limitless ways to use live. it's not all about 4/4 > techno loops. use your imagination. i can't think of any 'DAW' (which > live is and isn't) that encourages a more customizable and > individualistic user experience. no two people use this software the > same way. heh, well, not a lot of my music is about 4/4 loops, i didn't mean to imply a simplistic approach. i've done pieces in 5/4 and 7/4 (and no time sig at all) in Live, with great success and plenty of imagination. but that's certainly not what i'm saying, i believe any two people will use a tool completely differently because they are two unique people. that's a phenomenon separate from Live itself, or any tool, for that matter. I have *never* used the loop view in live. I have 100% always used the arrangement view. I spent probably a year or more "trying out" Live (and have many published tracks that used it) before deciding it just wasn't for me. Maybe Live 8 will change that. -m From craque at craque.net Mon Jan 19 14:04:38 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:04:38 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> exactly what i wanted! thanks Kim. Kim Cascone wrote: >> Kim- for those of us not properly initiated, beyond some familiarity >> with Adorno and Brecht, how about a reading list? >> Don't isolate - educate. > > like Tad pointed out there is a wealth of texts that have made their way > onto the microsound repository over the years > > thoughts: > > Terry Eagleton is a good place to start as is Adorno, Marcuse, LeFebvre, > Gramsci and Benjamin > I highly recommend Adorno's 'The Culture Industry' - but please forgive > his views on jazz - i.e. don't throw the baby out with the bath-water > > see if you can find a copy of 'Marxism and Art' by Maynard Solomon - pub > 1974 by Vintage Books - long out of print but a good place for getting > your feet wet > this excellent collection of essays started me thinking about the > intersection of politics and art while in music school > > there is a short excerpt from 'A Primer on Marxist Aesthetics' > by Macdonald Daly on the server that I put up a few years ago - sadly > the full work is out of print > > and Tad also mentioned the Morawski texts he placed up on the server - > which I haven't gotten around to reading > > while I was in Istanbul a friend of mine handed me a thick reprint by > Henry Klumpenhouwer titled > 'Late Capitalism, Lat Marxism and the Study of Music' which is very > interesting piece > > I would also recommend the cannon of Situationist works by Debord and > Vaneigem - some of which are also on the server > > I'd start with the server and let the bibilio's be your road map > > tip: that piece on the Gang of Four is also a very good and insightful read > > that should get you started > > FWIW: when debating a Marxist point of view on this list I have often > suggested that someone should read Adorno > which is usually met with snarky rejoinders by the anti-intellectual > subset of this list > > same as it ever was > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From kim at anechoicmedia.com Mon Jan 19 14:08:58 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:08:58 -0800 Subject: [microsound] ardour Message-ID: <9892A0DB-9ADB-44D8-9463-DA802CD064D0@anechoicmedia.com> I'd look into Ardour http://ardour.org/ you can map midi controllers to the mixer and the best part? it's free I plan to start using it on my netbook -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/7d5d48f1/attachment.htm From jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net Mon Jan 19 14:15:43 2009 From: jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net (John Hopkins) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:15:43 -0700 Subject: [microsound] McDemocracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > part of running a "free" but controlled democracy involves > > commodifying all threatening forms of media I'd add "Society of Spectacle" by Debord to gaining understanding of media and mediation... jh From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Mon Jan 19 16:00:53 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:00:53 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> Message-ID: <60500359-638B-4561-BDAC-FA51589E622D@sympatico.ca> well then! there's your problem! the session (or loop view) is ableton's strongest feature and what differentiates it from every other linear based vertically organized DAW. there's really no point to using live if you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. might as well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton is the session view, imho. i almost NEVER use the arrangement view. not at least the most exciting parts of composition are done and it's time for boring ol' arrangement time... it's a sequencing instrument, as they call it - not a DAW. as such, i think it should be 'played.' that's kinda the whole point:) g. > > > I have *never* used the loop view in live. I have 100% always used the > arrangement view. I spent probably a year or more "trying out" Live > (and > have many published tracks that used it) before deciding it just > wasn't > for me. Maybe Live 8 will change that. > > -m > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/32a9c406/attachment.htm From kim at anechoicmedia.com Mon Jan 19 16:57:20 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:57:20 -0800 Subject: [microsound] controller? Message-ID: <90D68AEC-1142-4135-959F-E328EF2B4169@anechoicmedia.com> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/19/techcrunch-tablet-update- prototype-b/ certainly cheaper than a Lemur, Tenori-On or Monome From time4cookies at hotmail.com Mon Jan 19 17:44:56 2009 From: time4cookies at hotmail.com (greg g) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:44:56 +0000 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> part of running a "free" but controlled democracy involves >> commodifying all threatening forms of media > this is not 'free' democracy - this is state capitalism, > corporatocracy or fascism> if 'social control' is engaged it is the power elite who wields this > weapon> and 'power over' someone takes the concept of 'free' out of the mix yeah, well, i put "free" in quotes for a reason. i think a big selling point for america is that it's a country in which you're supposedly free to do as you wish, choose your own destiny outside of preset class hierachies and so on, and free to believe what you want, but as i pointed out earlier, these are clear farces, and even the idea that americans think they possess such a nebulous unreality as "freedom" helps control their behavior, they're less likely to question the means of control. the idea is that nobody in power minds your art or the way you dress because after it's been commodified by capitalism, the threat has been removed, and that activity is now a pacifying force--a much more advanced form of control and order than in an authoritarian system wherein you're told what to do and what not to do and thereby pacified, but that pacification process is too blatant and unrest is more likely. it's so subtle, i bet most american presidents aren't even aware of it and have more or less good intentions for their country. > what are the earlier post digital mediums? well, i always associated subversion of cd-rom technology (oval), using other digital glitches or software failures in music, diy cd-r distrobution, low-bitrate mp3 music, tracker revival, and so on as being the earlier post-digital aesthetic, all of which i consider to be very successful artistic harnessings of the technology to further society because they were successful subversions and had the potential of artistically transcending the process and medium. now, there's web 2.0, blogosphere, myspace, cell phones, and as an artistic consumer, nothing i've seen ever on myspace (for example) has successfully challenged or subverted that medium rather than be subjugated to it. in fact, everything i've seen on those mediums would be better elsewhere, where the medium is subservient to the message, and even makes the message more poignant. i don't think there's any type of sound or art you can put on myspace that will be made better beacuse of it. it's really tough because i want to see the means of production and distribution of art made accessible to the masses just as much as the next guy, but you have to ask, at what price (if any)? it's a question too many artists don't seem to be asking themselves. there does seem to be something relating convenience to appreciation, if you sell someone a vinyl they have to sit down and pay attention to at home, and they pay a lot of money for it. they'll probably appreciate the vinyl more than if it's a free stream on myspace as they are checking their email or looking at porn. of course, money relative to appreciation is a bad situation too, but there are ways of getting around that, too, it doesn't have to be a price-gouged limited clear vinyl which, in fact, i'd be too scared to even open and put down on my turntable. i agree with charles turner about the local approach, lately i've just been getting back to cassette culture (although i was never in it in the first place, being too young...) and, as he wrote, condemning myself into obscurity at the same time. if i were ever to establish a following through that method, it'd probably happen through someone else finding the tape and blogging about it, more than likely, and often times the obscurity card is just another plea for popularity. everything's a niche market these days, anyway. it's their way or no way, it seems. > Is the content I produce really a symptom of a larger machine? How do> you know it's a symptom and not a struggle against the machine? i think you have to assume the worst scenario and be as rigorous in possible towards improving it. there's no way to know, but even if you were a struggle against the machine, you'd always want to strengthen your struggle, right? anyway, speaking for most of us, when i sit down to make music, i'm not consciously thinking "time to struggle against the machine." i don't really have any political agenda at all in music itself, it's not something i consider really powerful or even very good, but in some ways that's its own struggle, and being aware of it on some level dictates, for me, mostly marketing and medium decisions. coincidentally, subtle environmentalism has an influence on the packaging and means of production to, but it's not a conscious effort or anything i'd want to overtly advetise. i'm not advocating some big rage against the machine or muslimgauze type thing where the music is all about politics and nothing else, the pitfalls on that route are obvious and many. typically, i think it's just best to foster a better worldview emotionally and intellectually rather than politically, the political message being implicit. i wonder if live music has been changed much since the advent of web 2.0, or since the advent of anything.... i'm trying to figure out why i think shows suck more nowadays. maybe it's the advent of cell phone cameras, people are more removed from the moment... i should also mention in passing that technology itself isn't really the problem, it's what people do with it. new post-digital mediums might be an exception, though. i guess everything's a problem in my book until it's been proven that it can be subverted and controlled for the sake of human art. maybe i'm putting too much faith in art. for recommendations about readings on music and politics, check out writings by my favorite prog drummers chris cutler and charles hayward on their websites and in interviews. some of what they're talking about should be taken with a grain of salt, but for drummers, they're pretty smart. other than music, adam curtis documentaries are very nice (watched them on youtube, "lol"), guy debord's society of the spectacle, etc. i also like lydia lunch a lot, she has an interesting point (among others) in "diy or die" about how many forces there are in everyday life designed to waste your time and prevent you from even focusing on art, the internet being one of them, ironically something i did by watching that documentary. sorry this is so long, c'est la vie. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/ce9857ba/attachment-0001.htm From laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca Mon Jan 19 17:55:14 2009 From: laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca (Chantale Laplante) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:55:14 -0500 Subject: [microsound] duplicata Message-ID: <6E89C619-7637-4BDF-948F-6CC32ED9EB96@cooptel.qc.ca> Am I the only one getting a double of each and all of the messages coming in? Would there be a little bug on microsound's server? Thanks for checking this out... ...c From kcpaul at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 18:03:50 2009 From: kcpaul at gmail.com (Kevin Paul) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:03:50 -0700 Subject: [microsound] duplicata In-Reply-To: <6E89C619-7637-4BDF-948F-6CC32ED9EB96@cooptel.qc.ca> References: <6E89C619-7637-4BDF-948F-6CC32ED9EB96@cooptel.qc.ca> Message-ID: <96F8CA44-6B0A-4C3A-9FF4-464C47F7E5CC@gmail.com> ?? No problems here. On Jan 19, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Chantale Laplante wrote: > Am I the only one getting a double of each and all of the messages > coming in? > Would there be a little bug on microsound's server? > Thanks for checking this out... > ...c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From craque at craque.net Mon Jan 19 18:46:17 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:46:17 -0800 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <60500359-638B-4561-BDAC-FA51589E622D@sympatico.ca> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> <60500359-638B-4561-BDAC-FA51589E622D@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <497510C9.9030403@craque.net> ha ha ha, ok touche! this is my central problem. i have no real use for Live as it is really meant to be explored. plenty of people out there are using it as such, which is very impressive. but who knows, like i said, i'm open. :) in a perfect world, what i want is a Back To Basics style sample triggering device that doesn't do anything else but trigger pre-recorded samples. no sequencing abilities. maybe something i could accomplish with a homebuilt trigger interface, some flash memory and an Arduino board? Graham Miller wrote: > > well then! there's your problem! the session (or loop view) is ableton's > strongest feature and what differentiates it from every other linear > based vertically organized DAW. there's really no point to using live if > you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. might as > well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton is the > session view, imho. > > i almost NEVER use the arrangement view. not at least the most exciting > parts of composition are done and it's time for boring ol' arrangement > time... > > it's a sequencing instrument, as they call it - not a DAW. as such, i > think it should be 'played.' that's kinda the whole point:) > > g. > > >> >> >> I have *never* used the loop view in live. I have 100% always used the >> arrangement view. I spent probably a year or more "trying out" Live (and >> have many published tracks that used it) before deciding it just wasn't >> for me. Maybe Live 8 will change that. >> >> -m >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From jasonw22 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 19:39:19 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:39:19 -0800 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <497510C9.9030403@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> <60500359-638B-4561-BDAC-FA51589E622D@sympatico.ca> <497510C9.9030403@craque.net> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901191639t3200e918q7e736c9d91914a9b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:46 PM, CraqueMat wrote: > > maybe something i could accomplish with a homebuilt trigger interface, > some flash memory and an Arduino board? > I think that's a pretty interesting idea. Would a line-in or two for creating new samples on the fly over-complicate things too much? I've been playing around with the Arduino, and a bit of old fashioned analog circuitry and I'm starting to get pretty interested in low-cost homebrew electronic sound. I don't have anything to show for it just yet, but if you end up with a schematic or an Arduino sketch you like to use, or know of others who are creating and making accessible great stuff in this vein, please do share. -Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090119/24d2101c/attachment.htm From damian at frey.co.nz Mon Jan 19 21:10:47 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:10:47 +0100 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497532A7.7020307@frey.co.nz> greg g wrote: > i agree with charles turner about the local approach, lately i've just > been getting back to cassette culture (although i was never in it in the > first place, being too young...) and, as he wrote, condemning myself > into obscurity at the same time. if i were ever to establish a interesting that this point is coming up. i'm soon to face an interesting situation: in a few months my Dutch visa runs out, and i'm going to have to leave Europe and go back to New Zealand, unless i can rig up some new situation. the appeal of NZ is huge, plus all my friends are there. but in returning i'd be more or less giving up the nebulous 'career' thingy i've been building for myself as an artist here in EU-land. perhaps this makes more sense though, from a holistic point of view. i never quite brought myself to believe in the lifestyle of festivals via cheap jet flights; even high speed trains seem pretty fantastical. well, something. d -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From damian at frey.co.nz Mon Jan 19 21:10:47 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:10:47 +0100 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497532A7.7020307@frey.co.nz> greg g wrote: > i agree with charles turner about the local approach, lately i've just > been getting back to cassette culture (although i was never in it in the > first place, being too young...) and, as he wrote, condemning myself > into obscurity at the same time. if i were ever to establish a interesting that this point is coming up. i'm soon to face an interesting situation: in a few months my Dutch visa runs out, and i'm going to have to leave Europe and go back to New Zealand, unless i can rig up some new situation. the appeal of NZ is huge, plus all my friends are there. but in returning i'd be more or less giving up the nebulous 'career' thingy i've been building for myself as an artist here in EU-land. perhaps this makes more sense though, from a holistic point of view. i never quite brought myself to believe in the lifestyle of festivals via cheap jet flights; even high speed trains seem pretty fantastical. well, something. d -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From d4l3d at inbox.com Mon Jan 19 21:25:32 2009 From: d4l3d at inbox.com (d4l3d) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:25:32 -0800 Subject: [microsound] duplicata In-Reply-To: <6E89C619-7637-4BDF-948F-6CC32ED9EB96@cooptel.qc.ca> Message-ID: <87A72A7DBA0.00000C2Cd4l3d@inbox.com> I am too. > -----Original Message----- > From: laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca > Sent: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:55:14 -0500 > To: microsound at microsound.org > Subject: [microsound] duplicata > > Am I the only one getting a double of each and all of the messages > coming in? > Would there be a little bug on microsound's server? > Thanks for checking this out... > ...c > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From algomantra at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 21:24:53 2009 From: algomantra at gmail.com (AlgoMantra) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:54:53 +0530 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> Message-ID: <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> http://www.marxists.org/ It's huge.... ------- -.- 1/f ))) --. ------- ... http://www.algomantra.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/f4ca8b34/attachment.htm From vze26m98 at optonline.net Tue Jan 20 07:24:21 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:24:21 -0500 Subject: [microsound] The challenge of working at the time of network In-Reply-To: <497532A7.7020307@frey.co.nz> References: <497532A7.7020307@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <20090120072421671788.c6def491@optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:10:47 +0100, Damian Stewart wrote: > greg g wrote: > >> i agree with charles turner about the local approach, lately i've just >> been getting back to cassette culture (although i was never in it in the >> first place, being too young...) and, as he wrote, condemning myself >> into obscurity at the same time. if i were ever to establish a > > interesting that this point is coming up. i'm soon to face an interesting > situation: in a few months my Dutch visa runs out, and i'm going to have to > leave Europe and go back to New Zealand, unless i can rig up some new > situation. the appeal of NZ is huge, plus all my friends are there. but in > returning i'd be more or less giving up the nebulous 'career' thingy i've > been building for myself as an artist here in EU-land. perhaps this makes > more sense though, from a holistic point of view. i never quite brought > myself to believe in the lifestyle of festivals via cheap jet flights; even > high speed trains seem pretty fantastical. I think I was using the word "local" to mean a set of material (as opposed to virtual) conditions that we ourselves have the ability to control, and not some corporation that doesn't operate in our benefit. Folks might be interested in this interview with Ned Rossiter, which deals with networked labour organization, but I think many could read as applicable to their personal situations. I assume the vast majority of us are laborers. Anyone out there able to live comfortably off their royalties from compositions or recordings? ;-) The challenge of working at the time of network: Interview by Il Manifesto with Ned Rossiter Alessandro Delfanti: What's the best way to rebuild labour organizations in the network society? The anti-globalisation movement (a network-based movement) is dead and unions are incapable to intercept the needs of precarious and cognitive workers ... Ned Rossiter: At the risk of rehashing all too familiar territory, let me elaborate some of the current conditions challenging political organization within network societies. First, we need to problematise labour as some kind of coherent, distinct entity. We know well that labour in fact is internally contradictory and holds multiple, differential registers that refuse easy connection (gender, class, ethnicity, age, mode of work, etc.). This is the problem of organization. How to organize the unorganizables?, to borrow from the title of one of Florian Schneider's great documentary films. Second, we need to question the border between labour and life - contemporary biopolitics has rendered this border indistinct. Techniques of governance now interpenetrate all aspects of life as it is put to work and made productive. The result? No longer can we separate public from private, and this has massive implications for how we consider political organization today. What, in other words, is the space of political organization? Paolo Virno, for instance, speaks of a 'non-state public sphere'. But where, precisely is this sphere? All too often it seems networked, and nowhere. This is the trap of 'virtuality', understood in its general sense. Of course there can be fantastic instances of political organization that remain exclusively at the level of the virtual, which is the territory of today's 'info-wars'. Here, we find the continued fight over the society of the spectacle. Yet the problem of materiality nonetheless persists, and indeed becomes more urgent, as the ecological crisis makes all too clear (although this too is a contest of political agendas played out within the symbolic sphere). Personally I prefer a combinatory approach that brings the virtual dimension of organization together with a material situation. This may take the form of an event or meeting, workshops, publishing activities, field research, urban experiments, migrant support centres, media laboratories ... there are many possibilities. In Italy, uninomade and the media-activist network and social centre ESC are good examples of what I'm talking about here. In the instance of bringing many capacities together around a common problem or field of interest we begin to see the development of a new institutional form. These institutions are networked, certainly, and far from the static culture and normative regimes of the bricks and mortar institutions of the modern era ? unions, firms, universities, state. Their mobile, ephemeral nature is both a strength and a weakness. The invention of new institutional forms that emerge within the process of organizing networks is absolutely central to the rebuilding of labour organizations within contemporary settings. Such developments should not be seen as a burden or something that closes down the spontaneity, freedom and culture of sharing and participation that we enjoy so much within social networks. As translation devices, these new institutions facilitate trans-institutional connections. In this connection we find multiple antagonisms, indeed such connections make visible new territories of 'the political'. AD: What's the role of communication (and info tech) in new political organizations? NR: In many respects communication conditions the possibility of new political organizations. We could say that 'the political' of network societies is comprised of the tension between horizontal modes of communication and vertical regimes of control. Just think, for instance, of the ongoing battles between Internet and intellectual property regulators such as WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization) and pirate networks of software, music or film distribution. Collaborative constitution emerges precisely in the instance of confrontation. In this sense, the horizontal and vertical axes of communication are not separate or opposed but mutually constitutive. Moreover, how to manage or deal with these two axes of communication is often a source of tension within networks. Here, we are talking about the problem of governance, and there are no universal models to draw on. More often than not, networks adopt a trial-and-error approach to governance. But it is better to recognize that governance is not a dirty word, but one that is internal to the logic and protocols of self-organization. AD: Production and appropriation by firms are reaching every moment of our lifes (i.e. in web 2.0). Cooperation and coproduction are an asset of the firms' or workers' wealth? NR: You've identified one of the key tensions operating in the 'participation economy' of Web 2.0. Unions, in their industrial form, functioned to protect workers against exploitation and represent their right to fair and decent working conditions. But what happens when leisure activity becomes a form of profit generation for companies? Popular social networking sites such as Facebook, MySpace, Bebo, del.icio.us and the data trails we leave with Google function as informational gold mines for the owners of these sites. Advertising space and, more importantly, the sale of aggregated data are the staples of the participation economy. No longer can the union appeal to the subjugated, oppressed experience of workers when users voluntarily submit information and make no demands for a share of profits. Though we are starting to see some changes on this front, as users become increasingly aware of their productive capacities and can quickly abandon a social networking site in the same manner in which they initially swarmed toward it. Companies, then, are vulnerable to the roaming tastes of the networked masses whose cooperative labour determines their wealth. This cooperative labour constitutes a form of power that has the potential to be mobilized in political ways, yet so rarely is. Perhaps that will change before too long. Certainly, the production of this type of political subjectivity is preferable to the pretty revolting culture of 'shareholder democracy' that has come to define political expression for the neoliberal citizen." From roachboy at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 10:37:39 2009 From: roachboy at gmail.com (Stephen Hastings-King) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> hail comrades. 3 unrelated notes. 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical aesthetic theory takes the work as given for it's point of departure. bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory differ primarily in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on the artwork. in both, the processes of making are erased behind the work as totality and are replaced with one or another version of the mythical Artist. it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks that await us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to undo this category and the constraints that enframe it. this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have addressed it one way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of cases, the way folk went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements after fairly straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. 3. i like j.g. ballard's short text "the secret history of world war 3" as a point of departure for thinking about what he calls the ultra-royalism of television. it's in the re/search edition of atrocity exhibition, and makes for a nice innoculation relative to the spectacle of investiture to which we are presently being subject. ok so there's 4. i noticed in kim's mail of a couple days ago references to critiques of information theory (shannon et al). any pointers for reading material? thanks stephen On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 9:24 PM, AlgoMantra wrote: > http://www.marxists.org/ > > It's huge.... > > ------- -.- > 1/f ))) --. > ------- ... > http://www.algomantra.com > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/1ea0ff7f/attachment.htm From jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net Tue Jan 20 10:52:48 2009 From: jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net (John Hopkins) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:52:48 -0700 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hei! >1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical aesthetic theory takes the work as given for it's point of departure. >bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory differ primarily in the interpretive frameworks >2. these days, everyone's a situationist. well, I 'discovered' Debord about 25 years ago, and have watched the surficial popularization of some vocabulary (d?rive, etc etc) with VERY little real understanding of where the ideas came from -- it is illuminating to discover how FEW people have actually read Vaneigem and DeBord, for example.... This is the same with Marx -- after collaborating with a friend in Germany who has about 10 linear feet of Marx in his library and who has read it all -- I realized how marginal the understanding of 99.999999% of the population is about Marx... I don't think any of these had a full, complete, unified, and final model of the universe, but some of the ideas are very interesting and anyone working with new media in a social/public sense... or simply living in this Consumer Capital world of ours... On the other hand, I think the most important thing to be doing here on microsound is the (parroting) expression of phat ideologies, but more the idiosyncratic expressions of what individuals on the list are perceiving ... that's my 2-cents, whilst waiting for Regime Change... jh From jasonw22 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 11:04:02 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:04:02 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> The distance from ideology to sound seems like a rather long leap to my eyes at times (with the piece featuring sounds from Iraq being a notable exception, one which I wasn't brave enough to listen to...) I guess I'm personally interested more in the sounds than the ideas. Perhaps that is my deficit. I have been enjoying the recent Marxist banter, but fear I won't find the time to follow up on any of it anytime soon (whereas I'll be more likely to act on suggestions of new ways of forming sounds much sooner). What I am expressing is probably my loss, but it is truth. -Jason On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:52 AM, John Hopkins wrote: > > On the other hand, I think the most important thing to be doing here on > microsound is the (parroting) expression of phat ideologies, but more the > idiosyncratic expressions of what individuals on the list are perceiving ... > that's my 2-cents, whilst waiting for Regime Change... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/9c86347d/attachment.htm From owen at owengreen.net Tue Jan 20 11:14:29 2009 From: owen at owengreen.net (Owen Green) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:14:29 +0000 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4975F865.8050706@owengreen.net> Hi All, Really interesting discussion - glad it hasn't been shouted down. Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > ok so there's 4. > i noticed in kim's mail of a couple days ago references to critiques of > information theory (shannon et al). > any pointers for reading material? Terre Thaemlitz has been critical of information theory's use as the basis for aesthetics, at least as far as having issues with comments by Attali that regard music as 'pure information'. I don't know if you've read any Abraham Moles, but the ease with which his info-theory based aesthetics (from the 60s) argued itself into providing a purportedly natural basis for the musical hierarchies of labour as they stood at the time should be grounds for immediate suspicion :) I can't see any basis for a critique of the theory *per se*, but obviously there are plenty to made about misguided applications (say to complex areas of human activity like musicking). -- O From davidgriffin at rogers.com Tue Jan 20 11:19:02 2009 From: davidgriffin at rogers.com (davidgriffin at rogers.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:19:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' Message-ID: <402725.17854.qm@web88207.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Still, your finger is on the value of art, and the perceptions of the artist (who else would describe an enjoyment of Marx)?as a form of resistance -- its not the same as 'speaking out' but it could be just as dangerous... ?david ----- Original Message ----- From: Jason Wehmhoener To: microsound at microsound.org Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' The distance from ideology to sound seems like a rather long leap to my eyes at times (with the piece featuring sounds from Iraq being a notable exception, one which I wasn't brave enough to listen to...) I guess I'm personally interested more in the sounds than the ideas. Perhaps that is my deficit. I have been enjoying the recent Marxist banter, but fear I won't find the time to follow up on any of it anytime soon (whereas I'll be more likely to act on suggestions of new ways of forming sounds much sooner). What I am expressing is probably my loss, but it is truth. -Jason On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:52 AM, John Hopkins wrote: On the other hand, I think the most important thing to be doing here on microsound is the (parroting) expression of phat ideologies, but more the idiosyncratic expressions of what individuals on the list are perceiving ... ?that's my 2-cents, whilst waiting for Regime Change... _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/133117bc/attachment.htm From djdualcore at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 14:02:02 2009 From: djdualcore at gmail.com (Neil Clopton) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:02:02 -0600 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> Graham Miller wrote: > > there's really no point to using live if > you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. might as > well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton is the > session view, imho. Session view is a huge distinguishing feature, but I wouldn't say there is no point to the rest of Live. I use warping from the arrangement view all the time. SFAIK there isn't anything quite like warp markers in other software. -Neil -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/1cc3360c/attachment-0001.htm From marinos at agxivatein.com Tue Jan 20 14:28:06 2009 From: marinos at agxivatein.com (Marinos Koutsomichalis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:28:06 +0200 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was wandering, what about sound ?? The whole convertation regarding Live focuses on certain features and capabilities of this DAW in comparison with others available. Ok, but what about its sound?? Just try this: take a soundfile open in with logic, or with DP or with .. and with Live and just play it back... Do you hear the same thing ?? I don' t ! I was curious of what do you think about Live' s engine... Because I don' t think that (at least up to version 7) it is as good as (let' s see) Logic, DP, cubase, Nuedo, or Wavelab to name a few.... Let aside version 6 ....... Well I have to admit that it is not that bad in version 7 as in version 6, but when you just want to do some basic collages or mixing or sth that can easily be done with any of the aforementioned DAWs, why stick with Live since its sound-engine is (at least to my ears) inferior ?? On 20 ??? 2009, at 9:02 ??, Neil Clopton wrote: > Graham Miller wrote: > > > > there's really no point to using live if > > you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. > might as > > well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton > is the > > session view, imho. > > > Session view is a huge distinguishing feature, but I wouldn't say > there is no point to the rest of Live. I use warping from the > arrangement view all the time. SFAIK there isn't anything quite > like warp markers in other software. > > -Neil > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From damian at frey.co.nz Tue Jan 20 14:31:44 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:31:44 +0100 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497626A0.9030308@frey.co.nz> Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > I guess I'm personally interested more in the sounds than the ideas. i often feel like that. in fact, in my broader work as a an interactive/newmedia/digital/electronic/whateveritscalled artist, i'm much more interested in the experience than the ideas (which is surely the point). i'm reading Audio Culture at the moment -- the Michael Nyman essay 'Towards (a Definition of) Experimental Music' has a nice line: [W]hile it may be possible to view some experimental scores as concepts, they are, self-evidently (specific or general) directives for (specific or general) action. Experimental music has, for the performer, effected the reverse of Duchamp's revolution in the visual arts. Duchamp once said that 'the point was to forget with my hand ... I wanted to put painting once again at the service of my mind.' The /head/ has always been the guiding principle of Western music, and experimental music has successfully taught performers to remember with their hands, to produce and experience sounds physiologically. [comes from pages 214-215] and a another nice one from Bernhard G?nter a few pages back: I wish to get away from the paradigm of music as language-like, the aesthetics that believe music, or art in general, is a form of communication. My favorite metaphor for explaining what I'm after is a tree in a meadow: the tree is just standing there, it's not a message for you, but looking at it, you may thinking about a lot of things, feel a lot of things. ... When you associate things with what you hear, visualizing this or that, language gets back into the game and destroys the possibility of perceiving the existence of sound, its "being like this". -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From damian at frey.co.nz Tue Jan 20 14:32:36 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:32:36 +0100 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497626D4.804@frey.co.nz> Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. could you explain this a little? i only came across the situationists quite recently... -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From jasonw22 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 14:36:04 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:36:04 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <497626A0.9030308@frey.co.nz> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> <497626A0.9030308@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901201136n5736cb2cj6a90f6464c18ac64@mail.gmail.com> I love this. On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Damian Stewart wrote: > and a another nice one from Bernhard G?nter a few pages back: > > I wish to get away from the paradigm of music as language-like, the > aesthetics that believe music, or art in general, is a form of > communication. My favorite metaphor for explaining what I'm after is a tree > in a meadow: the tree is just standing there, it's not a message for you, > but looking at it, you may thinking about a lot of things, feel a lot of > things. ... When you associate things with what you hear, visualizing this > or that, language gets back into the game and destroys the possibility of > perceiving the existence of sound, its "being like this". > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/1eaad85b/attachment.htm From kim at anechoicmedia.com Tue Jan 20 14:48:12 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:48:12 -0800 Subject: [microsound] some thoughts Message-ID: <141E01A6-77AD-4AD1-86EF-22ECBD83AD00@anechoicmedia.com> > 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. I like this as a slogan but unfortunately this is not true maybe you mean like in early 00's everyone was 'Deleuzian' so yes there seems to be a current fad of Situationism in the arts thanks for the tip: I will read the JG Ballard essay (that is contained in his book 'War Fever' btw) there is a shannon doc on the server http://www.interdisciplina.org/microsound-repository/index.php? &direction=0&order=&directory=miscellaneous/Reading but try and hunt down a copy of the Abraham Moles book 'Information Theory and Esthetic Perception' also 'Reception Theory' would be a good place to start for a better understanding of how we consume cultural artifacts this was used in my formulation of a better model of communication I'll post this on the server but in the meantime check out: Reception Theory by Robert C. Holub > This is the same with Marx -- after collaborating with a friend in > Germany who has about 10 linear feet of Marx in his library and who > has read it all -- I realized how marginal the understanding of > 99.999999% of the population is about Marx... two points here: - having spent some time with both the Communist Party and Socialist Workers Party I've found each faction has their own 'prismatic view' of Marx hence the eternal evolutionary splintering of the left - everywhere - not just the US which could be a strength for subverting the undermining of capitalist agendas but has only led to a lack of any coherent strategies or solidarity for achieving action - also, there is no 100% understanding of Marx no matter how many linear feet of texts adorn your library I've met Marxists who read a few key works who have a better 'grasp' (if one can really achieve this) on things that some who have read everything it's one thing to have a scholarly knowledge of Marxism and yet another to use it as a tool for taking ideas and putting them into practice From kim at anechoicmedia.com Tue Jan 20 14:55:24 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:55:24 -0800 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... Message-ID: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list server guru wisdom in the transferring of the list over to yet another server thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a great community! could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat on the back! :) that being said, anyone experiencing a problem with the list please make sure to email John, Paulo and me oh and Happy Inauguration Day to everyone 'round the world but let's remember to hold the US Admin's feet to the fire -- we still have to make our voices heard and fight for democracy From craque at craque.net Tue Jan 20 15:01:04 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:01:04 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901201136n5736cb2cj6a90f6464c18ac64@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> <497626A0.9030308@frey.co.nz> <7a37090d0901201136n5736cb2cj6a90f6464c18ac64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49762D80.7000205@craque.net> The tree metaphor is awesome, I definitely feel this way about the music I create. And I certainly approach listening with as much of this attitude as I can, just by letting it happen. I've never been very good at coming up with some conceptual thing based on a highly philosophical starting point that breaks sonic ground. I think these kinds of artworks are very cool, but I suck at making them. Over the years I've found that I make the best music when I don't know what I'm doing, and have no philosophical underpinning. It just happens. So while I really WANT to come up with some really awesomely rad conceptual art thing, it never happens. The music others find most inspired is often that which has the least planning. Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > I love this. > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Damian Stewart > wrote: > > > and a another nice one from Bernhard G?nter a few pages back: > > I wish to get away from the paradigm of music as language-like, the > aesthetics that believe music, or art in general, is a form of > communication. My favorite metaphor for explaining what I'm after is > a tree > in a meadow: the tree is just standing there, it's not a message for > you, > but looking at it, you may thinking about a lot of things, feel a lot of > things. ... When you associate things with what you hear, > visualizing this > or that, language gets back into the game and destroys the > possibility of > perceiving the existence of sound, its "being like this". > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From craque at craque.net Tue Jan 20 15:03:16 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:03:16 -0800 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <49762E04.4090800@craque.net> John and Paulo you rock! Kim Cascone wrote: > ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list > server guru wisdom > in the transferring of the list over to yet another server > > thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a > great community! > > could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat > on the back! :) > > that being said, anyone experiencing a problem with the list please > make sure to email John, Paulo and me > > oh and Happy Inauguration Day to everyone 'round the world > but let's remember to hold the US Admin's feet to the fire -- we > still have to make our voices heard and fight for democracy > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From craque at craque.net Tue Jan 20 15:07:00 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:07:00 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <497626D4.804@frey.co.nz> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <497626D4.804@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> Is there a way to talk about music without using ism's? I'm not being an ass, this is genuine curiosity. Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't be a part of a conversation just because I haven't had time to read a book (and I read a lot). Damian Stewart wrote: > Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > >> 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. > > could you explain this a little? i only came across the situationists quite > recently... > From roachboy at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 15:19:31 2009 From: roachboy at gmail.com (Stephen Hastings-King) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:19:31 -0500 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901201136n5736cb2cj6a90f6464c18ac64@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> <497626A0.9030308@frey.co.nz> <7a37090d0901201136n5736cb2cj6a90f6464c18ac64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a5562340901201219ve2bccdaoba6473bc1fe88a29@mail.gmail.com> i'm not sure i understand the relation between working with conceptual games/problems and working with sound that's being presupposed in some of the responses like the one i will leave below (the quotes from audio culture--which is a lovely collection in the main, even as some of the edits are strange)... it's like folk assume there's some rigid translation at work in linking them--so what comes up against this projection (and it's nothing more than that) seems two-fold: 1. if you don't use the same approaches or know the same languages, what you do is somehow less legit. 2. in reaction against this, there follows usually one or another defense of immediacy. i don't know where that assumption comes from. speaking for myself, these are parallel games. i think of them as oscillators that generate separate signals but that couple in the process of making stuff and which through that open up different possibilities----sometimes i try to set up constraints explicitly presuppose theoretical questions, but more often i find that the registers of working interact with each other almost on their own, simply as a function of how i think in performance settings and--especially---of how i think when i'm listening back to the recorded maps of performances. and i find the problems that arise from trying to bend writing around to interact with sound work without substituting it for soundwork to be an interesting. difficult, but fun--you know. it appears that some folk here find this combination of pursuits to be generative and some don't--which is fine---but i haven't seen anyone trying to impose that combination on folk who don't work that way, and it wouldn't have crossed my mind that this (or any other) discussion about philo or politics here would be taken as doing that. i guess i've been on this list for a while now and i've never understood the differend that seems to come up during political or theoretical questions surface. ========= on "everyone's a situationist" i meant more or less what kim suggested...tons of folk are out there doing psychogeography these days---alot of "radical cartography" leans on it. i find some of it interesting, alot of it not so much, like anything else. i've worked alot on situationist stuff and over time have become increasingly suspicious of the whole category of psychogeography (the "subjective appropriation of urban space" which was set up as a reaction against and critique of the types of urban planning that were being used in the paris of the late 1950s--you know gridspace and the creation of space for an automobile-oriented city that went along with the reworking of the parisian housing stock during the 50s, which resulted in the erasure of alot of older streets and flattening of alot of buildings---and the type of design that built structured environments for leisure--that kind of thing). it seems to me that it gives up more than it gains by retreating to the subjective. this even as i think psychogeography experiments generate cool maps. am doing stuff, so have to get back to it. ps thanks for the recommendations re. critiques of information theory. some i knew about, some i didn't. good. stephen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/fda1e6fe/attachment.htm From benreviug at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 15:19:53 2009 From: benreviug at yahoo.com (guiver ben) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:19:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> Message-ID: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> i think politics (and im a politics graduate) are often a poor way to discuss sound/music. i like authors / people who are a bit more emotionally literate: i think the alt indie scene (well the more mainstream alt indie scene ) in the 90's was compared by someone to going to church, which i found quite amusing. it was the straight faced ness of it which i think appealed to the joker...sometimes things are so wooden, it bores the shit out of me and kills the life in things. satire might be a good place to start. pisses of all those pofaced types to begin with, and brings in humour, which is surely an under-rated quality in any kind of communication. that said i wouldnt wish to dismiss anyone who wanted to discuss something they found very serious, i just think there's a danger of taking some things too seriously. and russell brands a situationist, apparently... can anyone think of a good article / paper they read on music that made them laugh? i'd be most interested. best ben --- On Tue, 1/20/09, CraqueMat wrote: > From: CraqueMat > Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' > To: microsound at microsound.org > Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 8:07 PM > Is there a way to talk about music without using ism's? > > I'm not being an ass, this is genuine curiosity. > > Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't be a part > of a conversation > just because I haven't had time to read a book (and I > read a lot). > > Damian Stewart wrote: > > Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > > > >> 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. > > > > could you explain this a little? i only came across > the situationists quite > > recently... > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From erik at thuisbasis.net Tue Jan 20 15:22:22 2009 From: erik at thuisbasis.net (Erik Maes) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:22:22 +0100 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <4976327E.9080208@thuisbasis.net> Kim Cascone wrote: > could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat > on the back! :) Naturally! Major kudos, props and assorted cheers. Thanks for the hard work! Groet, Erik From jasonw22 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 15:24:33 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:24:33 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <497626D4.804@frey.co.nz> <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901201224q3867d3e7k14d803be47b665be@mail.gmail.com> Certainly. There are so many qualitative attributes of sound and musical structure that we can discuss without attachment to theory or ideology. However, this isn't to say that theory is without value, or that it cannot directly inform the direct discussion of physical attributes. But I do appreciate conversation that is grounded in phenomena I can directly experience with my senses. That type of discussion is less prone to ideological distortion. Of course, the input of our senses are interpreted by our minds, so we are never entirely free of ideas and interpretation. But I'll give an example that isn't related to music, that I encountered in my graphic design work the other day. An art director was reviewing some icons an artist had produced, and he said "the elements feel disconnected". The artist doesn't have very good English, so I encouraged him to frame his critique in terms based on dimension, lighting or hue. He reworded what he was saying to "the globes should be somewhat transparent to allow for the connecting stems to be visible underneath. The gradient used to create the lighting effect should have more variance in values to enhance the feeling of dimension in the globes." etc. Theory and 'isms, as well as less complex forms of communication, can often be a form of shared shorthand. This can make communication between a small number of people more efficient in some settings, but when you start looking at communicating with a networked world where individual frames of reference can have wide variance, it is often helpful to simplify and de-jargonize our language, and focus on descriptive terms that are easy to relate to because they directly reference the experience of our senses. Am I making any sense? -Jason On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:07 PM, CraqueMat wrote: > Is there a way to talk about music without using ism's? > > I'm not being an ass, this is genuine curiosity. > > Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't be a part of a conversation > just because I haven't had time to read a book (and I read a lot). > > Damian Stewart wrote: > > Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > > > >> 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. > > > > could you explain this a little? i only came across the situationists > quite > > recently... > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/12366f1d/attachment.htm From gary at meterpool.com Tue Jan 20 15:25:11 2009 From: gary at meterpool.com (Gary R. Weisberg) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:25:11 -0500 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <49763327.9020901@meterpool.com> Hear Hear!! Kim Cascone wrote: > ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list > server guru wisdom > in the transferring of the list over to yet another server > > thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a > great community! > > could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat > on the back! :) > > that being said, anyone experiencing a problem with the list please > make sure to email John, Paulo and me > > oh and Happy Inauguration Day to everyone 'round the world > but let's remember to hold the US Admin's feet to the fire -- we > still have to make our voices heard and fight for democracy > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > From craque at craque.net Tue Jan 20 15:33:02 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:33:02 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901201224q3867d3e7k14d803be47b665be@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <497626D4.804@frey.co.nz> <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> <7a37090d0901201224q3867d3e7k14d803be47b665be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497634FE.9070304@craque.net> Yes, this paragraph especially. I definitely relate to the "theoretical shorthand" and like how you compare it to relative experience from a wide range of participants. Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > Theory and 'isms, as well as less complex forms of communication, can > often be a form of shared shorthand. This can make communication between > a small number of people more efficient in some settings, but when you > start looking at communicating with a networked world where individual > frames of reference can have wide variance, it is often helpful to > simplify and de-jargonize our language, and focus on descriptive terms > that are easy to relate to because they directly reference the > experience of our senses. > > Am I making any sense? > > -Jason > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:07 PM, CraqueMat > wrote: > > Is there a way to talk about music without using ism's? > > I'm not being an ass, this is genuine curiosity. > > Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't be a part of a conversation > just because I haven't had time to read a book (and I read a lot). > > Damian Stewart wrote: > > Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > > > >> 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. > > > > could you explain this a little? i only came across the > situationists quite > > recently... > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From cyborgk at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 15:33:44 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:33:44 -0600 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901201233l6c154cfehcbdf286fd87cac9b@mail.gmail.com> Are you sure you are playing the soundfile 'unwarped' and raw? Live tends to try and warp files if you just drop them in, which certainly will add artifacts to the sound. Anyway the granular synth engine is in some ways the point, it's those very artifacts that make it an interesting tool for more experimental or microsound works. You can do an insane amount of repitching and stretching. I like to use Live with Pure Data, as a VST host mostly, sometimes triggering little audio files too. This works nice for generative stuff where I'm not doing raw DSP but just using various synthesizers and fx (raw DSP isn't my forte)... ~David On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: > I was wandering, > > what about sound ?? > > The whole convertation regarding Live focuses on certain features and > capabilities of this DAW in comparison with others available. Ok, but > what about its sound?? > > Just try this: take a soundfile open in with logic, or with DP or > with .. and with Live and just play it back... Do you hear the same > thing ?? I don' t ! > > I was curious of what do you think about Live' s engine... Because I > don' t think that (at least up to version 7) it is as good as (let' s > see) Logic, DP, cubase, Nuedo, or Wavelab to name a few.... Let aside > version 6 ....... Well I have to admit that it is not that bad in > version 7 as in version 6, but when you just want to do some basic > collages or mixing or sth that can easily be done with any of the > aforementioned DAWs, why stick with Live since its sound-engine is > (at least to my ears) inferior ?? > > On 20 ??? 2009, at 9:02 ??, Neil Clopton wrote: > >> Graham Miller wrote: >> > >> > there's really no point to using live if >> > you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. >> might as >> > well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton >> is the >> > session view, imho. >> >> >> Session view is a huge distinguishing feature, but I wouldn't say >> there is no point to the rest of Live. I use warping from the >> arrangement view all the time. SFAIK there isn't anything quite >> like warp markers in other software. >> >> -Neil >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From craque at craque.net Tue Jan 20 15:35:19 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:35:19 -0800 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <686ba4e40901201233l6c154cfehcbdf286fd87cac9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> <686ba4e40901201233l6c154cfehcbdf286fd87cac9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49763587.2070302@craque.net> Yes, you need to make sure you're not 'quantizing' the sound/sample/phrase in Live when you place it. One of my biggest peeves about Live was the way things sound choppy if you don't do this. David Powers wrote: > Are you sure you are playing the soundfile 'unwarped' and raw? Live > tends to try and warp files if you just drop them in, which certainly > will add artifacts to the sound. > > Anyway the granular synth engine is in some ways the point, it's those > very artifacts that make it an interesting tool for more experimental > or microsound works. You can do an insane amount of repitching and > stretching. > > I like to use Live with Pure Data, as a VST host mostly, sometimes > triggering little audio files too. This works nice for generative > stuff where I'm not doing raw DSP but just using various synthesizers > and fx (raw DSP isn't my forte)... > > ~David > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Marinos Koutsomichalis > wrote: >> I was wandering, >> >> what about sound ?? >> >> The whole convertation regarding Live focuses on certain features and >> capabilities of this DAW in comparison with others available. Ok, but >> what about its sound?? >> >> Just try this: take a soundfile open in with logic, or with DP or >> with .. and with Live and just play it back... Do you hear the same >> thing ?? I don' t ! >> >> I was curious of what do you think about Live' s engine... Because I >> don' t think that (at least up to version 7) it is as good as (let' s >> see) Logic, DP, cubase, Nuedo, or Wavelab to name a few.... Let aside >> version 6 ....... Well I have to admit that it is not that bad in >> version 7 as in version 6, but when you just want to do some basic >> collages or mixing or sth that can easily be done with any of the >> aforementioned DAWs, why stick with Live since its sound-engine is >> (at least to my ears) inferior ?? >> >> On 20 ??? 2009, at 9:02 ??, Neil Clopton wrote: >> >>> Graham Miller wrote: >>>> there's really no point to using live if >>>> you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. >>> might as >>>> well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton >>> is the >>>> session view, imho. >>> >>> Session view is a huge distinguishing feature, but I wouldn't say >>> there is no point to the rest of Live. I use warping from the >>> arrangement view all the time. SFAIK there isn't anything quite >>> like warp markers in other software. >>> >>> -Neil >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From hasse at algonet.se Tue Jan 20 15:37:37 2009 From: hasse at algonet.se (Hans Erik Nilsson) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:37:37 +0100 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <49763327.9020901@meterpool.com> Message-ID: Den 2009-01-20 21.25, skrev "Gary R. Weisberg" : > Hear Hear!! +1! :-) /Cheers, /Hans > > Kim Cascone wrote: >> ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list >> server guru wisdom >> in the transferring of the list over to yet another server >> >> thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a >> great community! >> >> could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat >> on the back! :) >> >> that being said, anyone experiencing a problem with the list please >> make sure to email John, Paulo and me >> >> oh and Happy Inauguration Day to everyone 'round the world >> but let's remember to hold the US Admin's feet to the fire -- we >> still have to make our voices heard and fight for democracy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com Tue Jan 20 15:41:15 2009 From: batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com (Batuhan Bozkurt) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:41:15 +0200 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <76AE6046-FB76-4743-B7C3-E84E2100B842@batuhanbozkurt.com> I'm a happy microsound lurker, kudos to all those making this place tick. BB. On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: > ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list > server guru wisdom > in the transferring of the list over to yet another server > > thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a > great community! From damian at frey.co.nz Tue Jan 20 15:49:48 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:49:48 +0100 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497638EC.8080703@frey.co.nz> guiver ben wrote: > satire might be a good place to start. time for a Laibach video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbB1s7TZUQk -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From benreviug at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 15:53:26 2009 From: benreviug at yahoo.com (guiver ben) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:53:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <497634FE.9070304@craque.net> Message-ID: <880173.12334.qm@web52001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> yes, Jason, i think you are making sense also. forgive my perhaps gobshitey earlier contribution, but while i was away from my laptop i was thinking about george orwell, in that he said in an essay (politics and the english language?) that ideas should be expressed as simply as possible - i guess this is not always possible - as they're easier to take it, and dont isolate people so much. politics in england have always been marked by a (variable) split between the working class and the middle class. i think someone said once that punk was a middle class idea with working class actors. language has, and does, play its part in this division. i like your sentence it is often helpful to simplify and de-jargonize our language, and focus on descriptive terms that are easy to relate to because they directly reference the experience of our senses. it does make me angry when people seem to use language to polish their egos, rather than communicate. i liked hunter s. thompson for this reason, as he often cut through the crap like very few others. best ben http:thefaithofgraffiti.blogspot.com --- On Tue, 1/20/09, CraqueMat wrote: > From: CraqueMat > Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' > To: microsound at microsound.org > Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 8:33 PM > Yes, this paragraph especially. I definitely relate to the > "theoretical > shorthand" and like how you compare it to relative > experience from a > wide range of participants. > > Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > > Theory and 'isms, as well as less complex forms of > communication, can > > often be a form of shared shorthand. This can make > communication between > > a small number of people more efficient in some > settings, but when you > > start looking at communicating with a networked world > where individual > > frames of reference can have wide variance, it is > often helpful to > > simplify and de-jargonize our language, and focus on > descriptive terms > > that are easy to relate to because they directly > reference the > > experience of our senses. > > > > Am I making any sense? > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:07 PM, CraqueMat > > > wrote: > > > > Is there a way to talk about music without using > ism's? > > > > I'm not being an ass, this is genuine > curiosity. > > > > Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't > be a part of a conversation > > just because I haven't had time to read a book > (and I read a lot). > > > > Damian Stewart wrote: > > > Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > > > > > >> 2. these days, everyone's a > situationist. > > > > > > could you explain this a little? i only came > across the > > situationists quite > > > recently... > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From marinos at agxivatein.com Tue Jan 20 15:56:29 2009 From: marinos at agxivatein.com (Marinos Koutsomichalis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:56:29 +0200 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <49763587.2070302@craque.net> References: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> <686ba4e40901201233l6c154cfehcbdf286fd87cac9b@mail.gmail.com> <49763587.2070302@craque.net> Message-ID: <00D2122B-9511-4CAA-A7A4-5A067B4A8F52@agxivatein.com> No I am not talking about this (this is a common issue though..) The point is that cubase, Logic, Dp, Nuedo, Wavelab and Live, the all sound different... Ok, since Live 7, the differences may not be so clear, and surely if there is some processing involved (just amplification or panning or sth) it is easier to see the differences. Cubase for example seem (well at least SX 1) to alter the qualities of the sound files when rendering a mixdown, Dp seems to be the more transparent of all, Logic is very transparent and so on... Live is not transparent, it alters sound, it is not linear, and especially in older versions this is more than evident. I have to admit though that version 7 was a great progress but it still can' t compare itself to Logic f.e. On 20 ??? 2009, at 10:35 ??, CraqueMat wrote: > Yes, you need to make sure you're not 'quantizing' the > sound/sample/phrase in Live when you place it. > > One of my biggest peeves about Live was the way things sound choppy if > you don't do this. > > David Powers wrote: >> Are you sure you are playing the soundfile 'unwarped' and raw? Live >> tends to try and warp files if you just drop them in, which certainly >> will add artifacts to the sound. >> >> Anyway the granular synth engine is in some ways the point, it's >> those >> very artifacts that make it an interesting tool for more experimental >> or microsound works. You can do an insane amount of repitching and >> stretching. >> >> I like to use Live with Pure Data, as a VST host mostly, sometimes >> triggering little audio files too. This works nice for generative >> stuff where I'm not doing raw DSP but just using various synthesizers >> and fx (raw DSP isn't my forte)... >> >> ~David >> >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Marinos Koutsomichalis >> wrote: >>> I was wandering, >>> >>> what about sound ?? >>> >>> The whole convertation regarding Live focuses on certain features >>> and >>> capabilities of this DAW in comparison with others available. Ok, >>> but >>> what about its sound?? >>> >>> Just try this: take a soundfile open in with logic, or with DP or >>> with .. and with Live and just play it back... Do you hear the same >>> thing ?? I don' t ! >>> >>> I was curious of what do you think about Live' s engine... Because I >>> don' t think that (at least up to version 7) it is as good as >>> (let' s >>> see) Logic, DP, cubase, Nuedo, or Wavelab to name a few.... Let >>> aside >>> version 6 ....... Well I have to admit that it is not that bad in >>> version 7 as in version 6, but when you just want to do some basic >>> collages or mixing or sth that can easily be done with any of the >>> aforementioned DAWs, why stick with Live since its sound-engine is >>> (at least to my ears) inferior ?? >>> >>> On 20 ??? 2009, at 9:02 ??, Neil Clopton wrote: >>> >>>> Graham Miller wrote: >>>>> there's really no point to using live if >>>>> you are going to constrain yourself to the arrange window only. >>>> might as >>>>> well use logic, etc. the whole (revolutionary) point of ableton >>>> is the >>>>> session view, imho. >>>> >>>> Session view is a huge distinguishing feature, but I wouldn't say >>>> there is no point to the rest of Live. I use warping from the >>>> arrangement view all the time. SFAIK there isn't anything quite >>>> like warp markers in other software. >>>> >>>> -Neil >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> microsound mailing list >>>> microsound at microsound.org >>>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From jasonw22 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 15:57:55 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:57:55 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <880173.12334.qm@web52001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <497634FE.9070304@craque.net> <880173.12334.qm@web52001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901201257u66149f5i9f53f5db25f0a450@mail.gmail.com> Amen. On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:53 PM, guiver ben wrote: > > it does make me angry when people seem to use language to polish their > egos, rather than communicate. i liked hunter s. thompson for this reason, > as he often cut through the crap like very few others. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/0f1210f9/attachment.htm From damian at frey.co.nz Tue Jan 20 16:07:48 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:07:48 +0100 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901201224q3867d3e7k14d803be47b665be@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <497626D4.804@frey.co.nz> <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> <7a37090d0901201224q3867d3e7k14d803be47b665be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49763D24.1030904@frey.co.nz> Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > Theory and 'isms, as well as less complex forms of communication, can > often be a form of shared shorthand. This can make communication between > a small number of people more efficient in some settings, but when you > start looking at communicating with a networked world where individual > frames of reference can have wide variance, it is often helpful to > simplify and de-jargonize our language, and focus on descriptive terms > that are easy to relate to because they directly reference the > experience of our senses. > > Am I making any sense? yes, much. i'm totally with youn on the 'shorthand' idea. although i think your 'individual frames of reference' apply equally in the real world as well. especially when discussing more recent theory, it seems that not having a shared understanding is part-and-parcel of understanding a particular author (i'm thinking of Deleuze here). -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From damian at frey.co.nz Tue Jan 20 16:11:32 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:11:32 +0100 Subject: [microsound] microsound Digest, Vol 1, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <00D2122B-9511-4CAA-A7A4-5A067B4A8F52@agxivatein.com> References: <535a89520901201102j2cab3308pf5b5e78c4f309ea@mail.gmail.com> <686ba4e40901201233l6c154cfehcbdf286fd87cac9b@mail.gmail.com> <49763587.2070302@craque.net> <00D2122B-9511-4CAA-A7A4-5A067B4A8F52@agxivatein.com> Message-ID: <49763E04.5090004@frey.co.nz> Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: > No I am not talking about this (this is a common issue though..) > > The point is that cubase, Logic, Dp, Nuedo, Wavelab and Live, the all > sound different... Ok, since Live 7, the differences may not be so > clear, oh yeah, totally with you on that. Live has a lovely, lovely sounding distortion/compression algorithm to deal with clipping. way back when, i used to use Cubase SX (version 1) cos it just sounded better. -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From kim at anechoicmedia.com Tue Jan 20 16:15:40 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:15:40 -0800 Subject: [microsound] micro-humor Message-ID: <3C3473A3-7E4C-40DE-97A3-16E96033525B@anechoicmedia.com> glad to see brackets are working for non-breaking links From gary at meterpool.com Tue Jan 20 16:22:57 2009 From: gary at meterpool.com (Gary R. Weisberg) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:22:57 -0500 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <497638EC.8080703@frey.co.nz> References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <497638EC.8080703@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <497640B1.8000905@meterpool.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/c22e532c/attachment.htm From vze26m98 at optonline.net Tue Jan 20 17:14:12 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:14:12 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Moles/Debord In-Reply-To: <4975F865.8050706@owengreen.net> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <4975F865.8050706@owengreen.net> Message-ID: <20090120171412455592.d9f5082d@optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:14:29 +0000, Owen Green wrote: > I don't know if you've read any Abraham Moles, but the ease with which > his info-theory based aesthetics (from the 60s) argued itself into > providing a purportedly natural basis for the musical hierarchies of > labour as they stood at the time should be grounds for immediate > suspicion :) Well, the Situationists threw tomatoes at Moles during his inaugural lecture at Strasbourg in 1966: Debord's critique of Moles had appeared as an open letter in Internationale Situationiste no. 9, August 1964: (I don't think this has been xlated into English.) Best, C From vze26m98 at optonline.net Tue Jan 20 17:22:16 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:22:16 -0500 Subject: [microsound] sounds/ideas In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901200804s151c4d61h568afb1bdbe2e9af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090120172216216572.52f938d7@optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:04:02 -0800, Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > The distance from ideology to sound seems like a rather long leap to > my eyes at times > I guess I'm personally interested more in the sounds than the ideas. "The function of art is never to illustrate a truth--or even an interrogation--known in advance, but to bring into the world certain interrogations (and also, perhaps, in time, certain answers) not yet known as such to themselves." Alain Robbe-Grillet From vze26m98 at optonline.net Tue Jan 20 17:33:46 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:33:46 -0500 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical aesthetic > theory takes the work as given for it's point of departure. > bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory differ primarily > in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on the artwork. > in both, the processes of making are erased behind the work as > totality and are replaced with one or another version of the mythical > Artist. > it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks that await > us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to undo this > category and the constraints that enframe it. > this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have addressed it one > way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of cases, the way folk > went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements after fairly > straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. Hi Stephen- I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction between "artistic value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be useful. (The first chapter of his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) Morawski was trying to justify both an historical materialist approach, and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, Poussin, and Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that an artist instills in an "object" that cause us to relate to it as such. Artistic value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the art object. (As he points out, people were making art objects long before there was any body of aesthetic thought.) Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic values, and an attempt to come to terms with how general and particular values instilled in art objects come to be significant. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. Best, Charles From cyborgk at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 18:12:38 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:12:38 -0600 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901201512w2d7e3591q5f3b9da7076ccdce@mail.gmail.com> Great book, recommended if you can find it. The cover alone is certain to spark interesting discussion if you leave it on the coffee table! ~David On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > hail comrades. > > 3. i like j.g. ballard's short text "the secret history of world war 3" as a > point of departure for thinking about what he calls the ultra-royalism of > television. > it's in the re/search edition of atrocity exhibition, and makes for a nice > innoculation relative to the spectacle of investiture to which we are > presently being subject. From laskurg at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 18:53:27 2009 From: laskurg at yahoo.com (Andrew Thompson) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:53:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <450887.71309.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you Microsound, especially quite recently. This list has really had some quite extraordinary discussions of late. --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Kim Cascone wrote: From: Kim Cascone Subject: [microsound] major shouts... To: microsound at microsound.org Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 2:55 PM ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list server guru wisdom in the transferring of the list over to yet another server thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a great community! could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat on the back! :) that being said, anyone experiencing a problem with the list please make sure to email John, Paulo and me oh and Happy Inauguration Day to everyone 'round the world but let's remember to hold the US Admin's feet to the fire -- we still have to make our voices heard and fight for democracy _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/a190a548/attachment.htm From owen at owengreen.net Tue Jan 20 19:02:43 2009 From: owen at owengreen.net (Owen Green) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:02:43 +0000 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <49766623.5050406@owengreen.net> Yes, thanks John and Paulo! Kim Cascone wrote: > ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list > server guru wisdom From dvnt.sea at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 19:03:53 2009 From: dvnt.sea at gmail.com (Doug Van Nort) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:03:53 -0500 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <76AE6046-FB76-4743-B7C3-E84E2100B842@batuhanbozkurt.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> <76AE6046-FB76-4743-B7C3-E84E2100B842@batuhanbozkurt.com> Message-ID: <830cf1ea0901201603n2e82eb47mafd549a76332dee0@mail.gmail.com> Likewise -- many many thanks to John and Paulo for facilitating this great information flow! (while on the subject also thanks to Kim et al. for the recent reading suggestions...) On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Batuhan Bozkurt wrote: > I'm a happy microsound lurker, kudos to all those making this place > tick. > BB. > > On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: > > > ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list > > server guru wisdom > > in the transferring of the list over to yet another server > > > > thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a > > great community! > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/a069416e/attachment.htm From damian at frey.co.nz Tue Jan 20 19:13:11 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:13:11 +0100 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <450887.71309.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <450887.71309.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49766897.40900@frey.co.nz> Andrew Thompson wrote: > Thank you Microsound, especially quite recently. This list has really > had some quite extraordinary discussions of late. indeed, thank you. i sometimes feel like microsound acts as the university fine arts education i never quite got... -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From margaretnoble2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 20 19:25:21 2009 From: margaretnoble2000 at yahoo.com (margaret noble) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:25:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] Surround Sound Mics and Field Recording Set-Ups Recs? In-Reply-To: <49766897.40900@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <384513.52942.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello List, I was hoping to get a few recommendations on surround sound mics and also an audio card that would work with a Mac laptop to capture surround sound recordings without the need for electrical power. Thanks! http://margaretnoble.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/76f86a70/attachment.htm From marinos at agxivatein.com Tue Jan 20 21:48:48 2009 From: marinos at agxivatein.com (Marinos Koutsomichalis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:48:48 +0200 Subject: [microsound] Surround Sound Mics and Field Recording Set-Ups Recs? In-Reply-To: <384513.52942.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <384513.52942.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0E123380-F0E6-4EDC-80EB-992CACCD1B91@agxivatein.com> soundfield manufactures some great mics.. they are quite top-notch and accordingly priced.. On 21 ??? 2009, at 2:25 ??, margaret noble wrote: > Hello List, > > I was hoping to get a few recommendations on surround sound mics > and also an audio card that would work with a Mac laptop to capture > surround sound recordings without the need for electrical power. > > Thanks! > > http://margaretnoble.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/69ab72a4/attachment-0001.htm From kim at anechoicmedia.com Tue Jan 20 21:56:44 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:56:44 -0800 Subject: [microsound] micro-situations Message-ID: <2D137DC2-4110-4F6D-9582-B650D6D621FB@anechoicmedia.com> > Well, the Situationists threw tomatoes at Moles during his inaugural > lecture at Strasbourg in 1966: > > > > Debord's critique of Moles had appeared as an open letter in > Internationale Situationiste no. 9, August 1964: > yes Debord worked hard to alienate many from the movement in its later days - even former colleagues my theory is that he sense the movement was being co-opted and turned into a caricature of itself so he emptied it and created a vacuum I just finished a very interesting book (more like a slim volume at 44 pgs plus color plates) by McKenzie Ward titled '50 Years of Recuperation' I highly recommend it but the Moles book as well as the work of the Constance School of 'reception theorists' is also very worth reading I like to mash up my philosophies and see what new ideas I can draw from them as for politics and music: - years ago I designed a workshop that uses a simple genetic algorithm as a framework for community based emergent content - people found it an interesting approach to making music and asked me what was the purpose in getting people to work this way - I had thought about this for a long time letting my thoughts evolve while watching the workshops take place - it is amazing to watch evolution in process as well as the networking and community building that takes place - in my own way I'm trying to teach people about the value of creating work that contains everyones individuality but is much greater than the sum of its parts - and how evolution depends on collaboration as well as solo efforts - but even the solo efforts become threads in the fabric of culture - but community building doesn't stop once my workshops end, there is a WIKI site created by the participants which serves as source for further research as well as the relationships formed in the process - it is rewarding to leave this 'seed' in these places and to hear how it grows after I leave - this IMO is politics in action - no preaching, no reading Marx and no agenda other than to plant seeds and let the evolution take us somewhere bigger than all of us combined From sirr at sirr-ecords.com Tue Jan 20 22:01:04 2009 From: sirr at sirr-ecords.com (Paulo Raposo) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 03:01:04 +0000 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: really perplexing that a politics graduate claims politics as a poor way to discuss sound/music. and more intriguing that someone that is, we hope, interested in politics, cannot find a way within it to discuss and think about sound (activity). Is sound and music separable from political realm and its ruling paradigms? what is an author (like Foucault asked)? where does he come from? what is made of? or are we in such an oblivious condition that we tend to aestheticize sound and music as the fascist attempted to aestheticize politics? the great living philosopher Giorgio Agamben wrote: ?politics is the sphere neither of an end in itself nor of means subordinated to an end; rather, it is the sphere of a pure mediality without end intended as the field of human action and of human thought? and speaking of Agamben, for those interested there's great stuff here http://v2v.cc/v2v/The_Power_and_the_Glory and a lot more easy to find in yotube on paradigm and contemporaneity. paulo raposo http://www.sirr-ecords.com On Jan 20, 2009, at 8:19 PM, guiver ben wrote: > i think politics (and im a politics graduate) are often a poor way > to discuss sound/music. > > i like authors / people who are a bit more emotionally literate: i > think the alt indie scene (well the more mainstream alt indie > scene ) in the 90's was compared by someone to going to church, > which i found quite amusing. it was the straight faced ness of it > which i think appealed to the joker...sometimes things are so > wooden, it bores the shit out of me and kills the life in things. > > satire might be a good place to start. pisses of all those pofaced > types to begin with, and brings in humour, which is surely an under- > rated quality in any kind of communication. > > that said i wouldnt wish to dismiss anyone who wanted to discuss > something they found very serious, i just think there's a danger of > taking some things too seriously. and russell brands a situationist, > apparently... > > can anyone think of a good article / paper they read on music that > made them laugh? i'd be most interested. > > best > > ben > > > --- On Tue, 1/20/09, CraqueMat wrote: > >> From: CraqueMat >> Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' >> To: microsound at microsound.org >> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 8:07 PM >> Is there a way to talk about music without using ism's? >> >> I'm not being an ass, this is genuine curiosity. >> >> Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't be a part >> of a conversation >> just because I haven't had time to read a book (and I >> read a lot). >> >> Damian Stewart wrote: >>> Stephen Hastings-King wrote: >>> >>>> 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. >>> >>> could you explain this a little? i only came across >> the situationists quite >>> recently... >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From kim at anechoicmedia.com Tue Jan 20 22:01:40 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:01:40 -0800 Subject: [microsound] another essential book Message-ID: 'The Open Work' by Umberto Eco it has affected my thinking about trying to 'say something meaningful' with my work I would rather that the listener take an active role in the production of meaning From lastnightsofparis at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 22:14:44 2009 From: lastnightsofparis at gmail.com (David Eng) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:14:44 -0800 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm going to jump in here and suggest "Noise: The Political Economy of Music" by Jacques Attali. On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:01 PM, Paulo Raposo wrote: > really perplexing that a politics graduate claims politics as a poor > way to discuss sound/music. > and more intriguing that someone that is, we hope, interested in > politics, cannot find a way within it > to discuss and think about sound (activity). > Is sound and music separable from political realm and its ruling > paradigms? > what is an author (like Foucault asked)? where does he come from? what > is made of? > or are we in such an oblivious condition that we tend to aestheticize > sound and music as the fascist attempted to aestheticize politics? > the great living philosopher Giorgio Agamben wrote: > "politics is the sphere neither of an end in itself nor of means > subordinated to an end; rather, it is the sphere of a pure mediality > without end intended as the field of human action and of human thought" > > and speaking of Agamben, for those interested there's great stuff here > http://v2v.cc/v2v/The_Power_and_the_Glory > and a lot more easy to find in yotube on paradigm and contemporaneity. > > paulo raposo > http://www.sirr-ecords.com > > On Jan 20, 2009, at 8:19 PM, guiver ben wrote: > > > i think politics (and im a politics graduate) are often a poor way > > to discuss sound/music. > > > > i like authors / people who are a bit more emotionally literate: i > > think the alt indie scene (well the more mainstream alt indie > > scene ) in the 90's was compared by someone to going to church, > > which i found quite amusing. it was the straight faced ness of it > > which i think appealed to the joker...sometimes things are so > > wooden, it bores the shit out of me and kills the life in things. > > > > satire might be a good place to start. pisses of all those pofaced > > types to begin with, and brings in humour, which is surely an under- > > rated quality in any kind of communication. > > > > that said i wouldnt wish to dismiss anyone who wanted to discuss > > something they found very serious, i just think there's a danger of > > taking some things too seriously. and russell brands a situationist, > > apparently... > > > > can anyone think of a good article / paper they read on music that > > made them laugh? i'd be most interested. > > > > best > > > > ben > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/20/09, CraqueMat wrote: > > > >> From: CraqueMat > >> Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' > >> To: microsound at microsound.org > >> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 8:07 PM > >> Is there a way to talk about music without using ism's? > >> > >> I'm not being an ass, this is genuine curiosity. > >> > >> Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't be a part > >> of a conversation > >> just because I haven't had time to read a book (and I > >> read a lot). > >> > >> Damian Stewart wrote: > >>> Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > >>> > >>>> 2. these days, everyone's a situationist. > >>> > >>> could you explain this a little? i only came across > >> the situationists quite > >>> recently... > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> microsound mailing list > >> microsound at microsound.org > >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/596b7f75/attachment.htm From dfm888 at optonline.net Tue Jan 20 23:30:43 2009 From: dfm888 at optonline.net (David Maier) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:30:43 -0500 Subject: [microsound] another essential book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B5392B3-34CB-43C9-8066-BD6796B5CBC0@optonline.net> On Jan 20, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: > I would rather that the listener take an active role in the > production of meaning Or, as someone said a while back: "Music to me is the background to a mental picture, but the exact interpretation must be made by the listener, hence the music is only half composed and the listener himself should attack the composition to get a mental repercussion. The listener has to add the meaning." Klaus Schulze, liner notes to Mirage (1977) Great minds, &c. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090120/cfa493cc/attachment.htm From microsound at morfina.org Wed Jan 21 00:50:43 2009 From: microsound at morfina.org (uracil) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:50:43 +0000 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <49762EE4.7070304@craque.net> <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6e9783370901202150i41e107a7lbe0c620ebc27ff9d@mail.gmail.com> > can anyone think of a good article / paper they read on music that made > them laugh? i'd be most interested. > http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/arvindn/misc/knuth_song_complexity.pdf made me laugh. maybe i should go out more.. nice thread ;) - uracil -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/ff57fab3/attachment-0001.htm From dagmar.buchwald at uni-bielefeld.de Wed Jan 21 06:20:39 2009 From: dagmar.buchwald at uni-bielefeld.de (Dagmar Buchwald) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:20:39 +0100 Subject: [microsound] {Spam?} unsubscribe Message-ID: <49770507.5000100@uni-bielefeld.de> From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 07:21:20 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:21:20 -0500 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <20090121072120828599.b6ddd606@optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:55:24 -0800, Kim Cascone wrote: > could everyone take a moment to thank these guys? they deserve a pat > on the back! :) Yes, thanks! And let's take the departure from Hyperreal as a good omen for the future! > that being said, anyone experiencing a problem with the list please > make sure to email John, Paulo and me Not a problem, and I know it's adding to someone's plate: would it be possible to have the "reading" area of the microsound server password protected? I know there's value in having everyone able to access the material easily, but with some small control, we could legally post/share journal essays from JSTOR and the like... Best, Charles From roachboy at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 07:58:33 2009 From: roachboy at gmail.com (Stephen Hastings-King) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:58:33 -0500 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> Message-ID: <3a5562340901210458o4764833dnd6f9946191718470@mail.gmail.com> hello charles. thanks for the tip on morawski: i haven't heard of him before, so will check out his work. i'm also pleased that the notion of open work is on the table again because that's at the center of what i was thinking (but did not write below) about aesthetics as a problem. an open work is reassembled, it changes and it's meanings are made differently each time. the varying character of such works migrate them outside the object-orientation of aesthetic theory, it switches the relation of making to the work. meanings--which lean on ways of determining provisionally what a piece is---become as varied as those who experience the piece. the boundary between experiencing and composing gets blurred. i like the idea that one can present layers of sound or other forms of information simultaneously without obvious markers as to hierarchy amongst them (but with attention to detail and clarity at each layer--that's my preference anyway) and put an audience in the position of organizing for themselves what they experience (or read) such there is no object or phenomenon---there are only versions. eco talks about this mostly in the context of fixed media---stockhausen's klavierstucke 11 (i remember the excerpt in audio culture better than the book as a whole because i used audio culture multiple times in courses) and texts---but i've also found it a really interesting hook for thinking about improvisation and pieces that use environmental sound (scrambling scale for example)---in an improvised context, thinking what you're doing through a notion of open work puts performers and audience in the same situation--the resulting versions are a numerous as is the audience, the meanings explicitly made in the process and the whole is transient. this pushes an interesting wedge between performance and recording that i like to think about--it's through this that i got interested in making recorded environments unstable by making pieces that one would layer--play 4 cds simultaneously say---which requires a bit of planning that's not at odds with improvising---such that every choice a listener would make with respect to sound systems, how to deal with slightly varied lengths of the component recordings, how well they know individual recordings as separate environments etc. would change the outputs. i like to think that no two playbacks would be the same. i know that the whole is other than the sum of the parts. i think there's a pretty basic critique of traditional aesthetic theory performed in all this. stephen On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Charles Turner wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > > 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical aesthetic > > theory takes the work as given for it's point of departure. > > bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory differ primarily > > in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on the artwork. > > in both, the processes of making are erased behind the work as > > totality and are replaced with one or another version of the mythical > > Artist. > > it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks that await > > us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to undo this > > category and the constraints that enframe it. > > this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have addressed it one > > way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of cases, the way folk > > went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements after fairly > > straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. > > Hi Stephen- > > I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction between "artistic > value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be useful. (The first chapter of > his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) > > Morawski was trying to justify both an historical materialist approach, > and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, Poussin, and > Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. > > Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that an artist > instills in an "object" that cause us to relate to it as such. Artistic > value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the art object. > (As he points out, people were making art objects long before there was > any body of aesthetic thought.) > > Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic values, and an > attempt to come to terms with how general and particular values > instilled in art objects come to be significant. > > But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. > > Best, Charles > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/e90ad04b/attachment.htm From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 08:15:58 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:15:58 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Williams/Kessler/Arditti Message-ID: <20090121081558727631.19324478@optonline.net> OK. Here's another non-microsound music link: "THE DEAD EMCEE SCROLLS has been set to music composed by Thomas Kessler and performed by The Arditti String Quartet." My first quick listen/reaction was that the mix was not great, with Williams' voice impairing a listen of the quartet. But maybe that's what you get when you overdub classical performance... Best, C From tobiasreber at sunrise.ch Wed Jan 21 08:27:45 2009 From: tobiasreber at sunrise.ch (Tobias Reber) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:27:45 +0100 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <76AE6046-FB76-4743-B7C3-E84E2100B842@batuhanbozkurt.com> References: <9B69B0E1-0871-4F02-B7BF-20603ECCD6E0@anechoicmedia.com> <76AE6046-FB76-4743-B7C3-E84E2100B842@batuhanbozkurt.com> Message-ID: so am I! thanks to everybody involved in making this list work. tobias Am 20.01.2009 um 21:41 schrieb Batuhan Bozkurt: > I'm a happy microsound lurker, kudos to all those making this place > tick. > BB. > > On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: > >> ...go to John and Paulo once again for all their hard work and list >> server guru wisdom >> in the transferring of the list over to yet another server >> >> thanks to you both for your hard effort in making the microsound a >> great community! > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound --- Tobias Reber : musician / sound designer Tobias Reber Vechigen Dorf 3067 Boll Switzerland mobile: ++41 (0)79 573 11 69 email: tobiasreber at sunrise.ch www.myspace.com/stereorabbi From tobiasreber at sunrise.ch Wed Jan 21 08:30:51 2009 From: tobiasreber at sunrise.ch (Tobias Reber) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:30:51 +0100 Subject: [microsound] another essential book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <032110D7-6FB0-4958-8748-5881BB17751A@sunrise.ch> I agree. I have yet to read the book, but the (quite lengthy) essay by the same title is superb and might be a good introduction to the subject/s (?). tobias Am 21.01.2009 um 04:01 schrieb Kim Cascone: > 'The Open Work' by Umberto Eco > > > it has affected my thinking about trying to 'say something > meaningful' with my work > I would rather that the listener take an active role in the > production of meaning > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound --- Tobias Reber : musician / sound designer Tobias Reber Vechigen Dorf 3067 Boll Switzerland mobile: ++41 (0)79 573 11 69 email: tobiasreber at sunrise.ch www.myspace.com/stereorabbi From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 08:33:41 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:33:41 -0500 Subject: [microsound] micro-situations In-Reply-To: <2D137DC2-4110-4F6D-9582-B650D6D621FB@anechoicmedia.com> References: <2D137DC2-4110-4F6D-9582-B650D6D621FB@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <20090121083341902610.f456ad4b@optonline.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:56:44 -0800, Kim Cascone wrote: > yes Debord worked hard to alienate many from the movement in its > later days - even former colleagues > my theory is that he sense the movement was being co-opted and turned > into a caricature of itself so he emptied it and created a vacuum Are you saying that Moles and DeBord would have wanted to have formalized their relationship as anything other than an irreconcilable difference? Anyway, T. J. Clark's "Why Art Can't Kill The Situationist International" is worth a read on this subject if you're into politics, or just a scan if you're into art: (I won't leave this up forever...) "Enough, enough. In the end the interest of the Debray/NLR proceedings lies in the way they reveal, just a little more flagrantly than usual, the structure (and function) of what now passes for knowledge of the S.I. from 1960 on. The established wisdom, let us call it. It can be broken down into four essential propositions, though obviously these overlap and repeat themselves. Proposition 1: The Situationist International was an art organization (a typical late-modernist avant-garde) that strayed belatedly into "art politics."Judged as art, its politics do not amount to much. And surely they are not meant to be judged as politics! Proposition 2: The S.I. in its last ten years was an art-political sect, consumed with the lineaments of its own purity, living on a diet of exclusions and denunciations, and largely ignoring the wider politi- cal realm, or the problems of organization and expansion that pre- sented themselves in an apparently prerevolutionary situation. Call this the clean-hands thesis. Or the burning-with-the-pure-flame-of- negativity thesis. (Proposition 2 is subscribed to, be it said, by many of the S.I.'s admirers.) Proposition 3: Situationist politics was "subjectivist," post- or hyper- Surrealist, propelled by a utopian notion of a new "politics of everyday life" that can be reduced to a handful of '68 graffiti: "Take your desires for reality," "Boredom is always counter-revolutionary," etc. Proposition 4: Situationist theory, especially as represented by Debord's The Society of the Spectacle, is hopelessly young-Hegelian-rhetorical, totalizing, resting on a metaphysical hostility to "mere" appearance or representation, and mounting a last-ditch defense of the notion of authenticity, whether of individual or class subject." From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 08:51:52 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:51:52 -0500 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901210458o4764833dnd6f9946191718470@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> <3a5562340901210458o4764833dnd6f9946191718470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090121085152152891.3e42e4de@optonline.net> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:58:33 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > thanks for the tip on morawski: i haven't heard of him before, so > will check out his work. > > i'm also pleased that the notion of open work is on the table again > because that's at the center > of what i was thinking (but did not write below) about aesthetics as > a problem. Hi Stephen- I haven't re-read it, but I think the Morawski essay I posted on the micrsound server/project repository, "ArtisticValue.pdf" covers essentially the same territory as his _Fundamentals of Aesthetics_. And it ends with a brief discussion of the Eco book! Enjoy, Charles From js0000 at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 09:28:23 2009 From: js0000 at gmail.com (john saylor) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:28:23 -0500 Subject: [microsound] major shouts... In-Reply-To: <49766897.40900@frey.co.nz> References: <450887.71309.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49766897.40900@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: hi On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Damian Stewart wrote: > i sometimes feel like microsound acts as the university fine arts education > i never quite got... just without the fleshy parts ... -- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ] From jasonw22 at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 09:28:48 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:28:48 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Public Space Message-ID: <7a37090d0901210628p1736822dva444302066a8b0b1@mail.gmail.com> So now I'm going to contradict myself and say that the recently mentioned Eco and Morawski sound really interesting, so I'm going to have to get around to reading those (and ya, possibly some or a lot of the others too if I can manage it). Language has a way of allowing one to paint oneself into a corner at times. ;-) I just wish I had more "free" time. What I'm wondering about as I read about open work projects that allow for the listener to form the piece as they experience it is: how do you negotiate the need for public space in these works? Living in the Santa Cruz, CA area, real estate isn't a trivial concern for me. Several possibilities do come to mind however: temporary space (set up for one night, tear it down again), gallery space (longer term art installation, this seems to have the broadest possibility, but with some hurdles for the unpedigreed...), truly public space such as parks (interesting constraints from being outdoors, weatherproofing, guarding against vandalism: "sound sculpture"), and virtual space (networked http compositions, I've been a web developer in a professional capacity in past years)... Curious to hear ideas, strategies, brainstorms... -Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/75d45e19/attachment.htm From kim at anechoicmedia.com Wed Jan 21 09:34:52 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:34:52 -0800 Subject: [microsound] pswd Message-ID: <5FAF27D8-B4F9-4143-B5CB-28DC01A21B45@anechoicmedia.com> > Not a problem, and I know it's adding to someone's plate: would it be > possible to have the "reading" area of the microsound server password > protected? I know there's value in having everyone able to access the > material easily, but with some small control, we could legally > post/share journal essays from JSTOR and the like... > this might have changed (I hope not) but I asked John/Paulo to implement an email check on people downloading/uploading content to the server in other words if you aren't a member of microsound then you are unable to U/D content John/Paulo is this still the case? :) From kim at anechoicmedia.com Wed Jan 21 10:00:15 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:00:15 -0800 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) Message-ID: > Are you saying that Moles and DeBord would have wanted to have > formalized their relationship as anything other than an irreconcilable > difference? no this statement is speculative and I did not (mean to) imply that I was simply pointing out that Debord was actively alienating his last of his cohorts towards the end of the SI and that Moles might have been caught up in this > Proposition 1: The Situationist International was an art organization > (a typical late-modernist avant-garde) that strayed belatedly into > "art > politics."Judged as art, its politics do not amount to much. And > surely > they are not meant to be judged as politics! I disagree with the author...I'd say 'Revolution of Everyday Life' and 'Society of the Spectacle' are pretty squarely fixed in political critique and they did leave us a detailed blue print for culture-jamming > Proposition 2: The S.I. in its last ten years was an art-political > sect, consumed with the lineaments of its own purity, living on a diet > of exclusions and denunciations, this is what I was pointing out w/r/t Moles > propelled by a utopian notion of a new "politics of > everyday life" that can be reduced to a handful of '68 graffiti: "Take > your desires for reality," "Boredom is always counter-revolutionary," > etc. again I disagree...much of the political-punk movement took its rule- book from the SI > Situationist theory, especially as represented by > Debord's The Society of the Spectacle, is hopelessly > young-Hegelian-rhetorical, can't we find similar critiques in Baudrillard and Eco -- even Barthes and Sontag? I don't think we should reduce SOTS to a young Hegelian utopian rant to my mind Vaneigem and Debord both called bullshit on a post WWII society racing towards gluttonous consumerism but in any case the idea of culture-jamming has been raised here in the past witness the microsound drop-lifting project maybe time to dust it off and infuse it with some new ideas? From azimuths at freenet.co.uk Wed Jan 21 10:16:08 2009 From: azimuths at freenet.co.uk (Thanos Chrysakis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:16:08 -0000 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here two titles from Cornelios Castoriadis for those who are interested in pristine and edgy philosophical thinking. Figures of the Thinkable ( I've uploaded this title on the microsound server) &s=books&qid=1232541366&sr=1-3> The Imaginary Institution of Society: Creativity and Autonomy in the Social-historical World &s=books&qid=1232541366&sr=1-2> other on-line stuff here: also, worth reading concerning aesthetics is this small volume by Georg Gadamer The Relevance of the Beautiful and other essays. &id=6v40xURkG74C&dq=the+relevance+of+the+beautiful&printsec=frontcover&sourc e=web&ots=ETQyUBsiit&sig=cYEsbd7h-hd-whsw8stNu9cPDRA&sa=X&oi=book_result&res num=6&ct=result> have a nice reading, Thanos P.S. John and Paulo what else... but THANKS for keeping this list going. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/fed35c17/attachment-0001.htm From paulo.mouat at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 10:57:00 2009 From: paulo.mouat at gmail.com (Paulo Mouat) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:57:00 -0500 Subject: [microsound] pswd In-Reply-To: <5FAF27D8-B4F9-4143-B5CB-28DC01A21B45@anechoicmedia.com> References: <5FAF27D8-B4F9-4143-B5CB-28DC01A21B45@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <424ce300901210757l17c516a9v5b86c4e69738958a@mail.gmail.com> Only members can upload; download is free for all (otherwise the projects material would not be accessible to flash players and podcasts). We can certainly think about implementing some sort of protection for reading. //p http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0 On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Kim Cascone wrote: >> Not a problem, and I know it's adding to someone's plate: would it be >> possible to have the "reading" area of the microsound server password >> protected? I know there's value in having everyone able to access the >> material easily, but with some small control, we could legally >> post/share journal essays from JSTOR and the like... >> > > this might have changed (I hope not) but I asked John/Paulo to > implement an email check on people downloading/uploading content to > the server > in other words if you aren't a member of microsound then you are > unable to U/D content > John/Paulo is this still the case? > :) > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From craque at craque.net Wed Jan 21 11:14:26 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:14:26 -0800 Subject: [microsound] another essential book In-Reply-To: <032110D7-6FB0-4958-8748-5881BB17751A@sunrise.ch> References: <032110D7-6FB0-4958-8748-5881BB17751A@sunrise.ch> Message-ID: <497749E2.6010603@craque.net> I'm an enormous Eco fan, this I haven't read but will pick up for sure. Tobias Reber wrote: > I agree. I have yet to read the book, but the (quite lengthy) essay by > the same title is superb and might be a good introduction to the > subject/s (?). > > tobias > > Am 21.01.2009 um 04:01 schrieb Kim Cascone: > >> 'The Open Work' by Umberto Eco >> >> >> it has affected my thinking about trying to 'say something >> meaningful' with my work >> I would rather that the listener take an active role in the >> production of meaning >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > --- > > Tobias Reber : musician / sound designer > > Tobias Reber > Vechigen Dorf > 3067 Boll > Switzerland > > mobile: ++41 (0)79 573 11 69 > email: tobiasreber at sunrise.ch > www.myspace.com/stereorabbi > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From craque at craque.net Wed Jan 21 11:36:46 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:36:46 -0800 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901210458o4764833dnd6f9946191718470@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> <3a5562340901210458o4764833dnd6f9946191718470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49774F1E.5000304@craque.net> I'm anxious to read Eco's ideas about the open work, I'm firmly in that category of belief. Especially with improvisation, which is a huge part of my work, anyway. What's interesting about the open work is that it could become anything or be made FROM anything. It's interesting, for example, how pieces on Raster-Noton are described as "scientific" approaches to music making. This leaves me with the sense that these guys are bent over test tubes and petri dishes of individual motes of sound, expressing them with surgical accuracy and planning. At the same time, a very very similar sounding label in 12K has many artists that espouse improvisation as a central figure in their music making. Obviously I am over generalizing, as neither label can be described this way categorically, but as an example I think it's fitting. Two very different approaches which both share the benefit of 'the open work', i think, in two very different ways. What's also apparent is that we don't necessarily know what's going on. The approach of the artist doesn't matter, but the end result is the same. A 20 minute free improvisation with no editing and no assist from a laptop may sound as complex and 'open' as an extremely well thought out concept and construction. ( BTW, Kyle Gann's article about electronic music profs and Max/MSP-ism is hilarious. I love his blog. ) -matt Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > hello charles. > > thanks for the tip on morawski: i haven't heard of him before, so will > check out his work. > > i'm also pleased that the notion of open work is on the table again > because that's at the center > of what i was thinking (but did not write below) about aesthetics as a > problem. > > an open work is reassembled, it changes and it's meanings are made > differently each time. the varying character of such works migrate them > outside the object-orientation of aesthetic theory, it switches the > relation of making to the work. meanings--which lean on ways of > determining provisionally what a piece is---become as varied as those > who experience the piece. > the boundary between experiencing and composing gets blurred. > > i like the idea that one can present layers of sound or other forms of > information simultaneously without obvious markers as to hierarchy > amongst them (but with attention to detail and clarity at each > layer--that's my preference anyway) and put an audience in the position > of organizing for themselves what they experience (or read) such there > is no object or phenomenon---there are only versions. eco talks about > this mostly in the context of fixed media---stockhausen's klavierstucke > 11 (i remember the excerpt in audio culture better than the book as a > whole because i used audio culture multiple times in courses) and > texts---but i've also found it a really interesting hook for thinking > about improvisation and pieces that use environmental sound (scrambling > scale for example)---in an improvised context, thinking what you're > doing through a notion of open work puts performers and audience in the > same situation--the resulting versions are a numerous as is the > audience, the meanings explicitly made in the process and the whole is > transient. > > this pushes an interesting wedge between performance and recording that > i like to think about--it's through this that i got interested in making > recorded environments unstable by making pieces that one would > layer--play 4 cds simultaneously say---which requires a bit of planning > that's not at odds with improvising---such that every choice a listener > would make with respect to sound systems, how to deal with slightly > varied lengths of the component recordings, how well they know > individual recordings as separate environments etc. would change the > outputs. > i like to think that no two playbacks would be the same. > i know that the whole is other than the sum of the parts. > > i think there's a pretty basic critique of traditional aesthetic theory > performed in all this. > > stephen > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Charles Turner > wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > > 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical aesthetic > > theory takes the work as given for it's point of departure. > > bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory differ primarily > > in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on the artwork. > > in both, the processes of making are erased behind the work as > > totality and are replaced with one or another version of the mythical > > Artist. > > it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks that await > > us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to undo this > > category and the constraints that enframe it. > > this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have addressed it one > > way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of cases, the way folk > > went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements after fairly > > straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. > > Hi Stephen- > > I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction between "artistic > value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be useful. (The first chapter of > his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) > > Morawski was trying to justify both an historical materialist approach, > and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, Poussin, and > Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. > > Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that an artist > instills in an "object" that cause us to relate to it as such. Artistic > value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the art object. > (As he points out, people were making art objects long before there was > any body of aesthetic thought.) > > Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic values, and an > attempt to come to terms with how general and particular values > instilled in art objects come to be significant. > > But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. > > Best, Charles > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From roachboy at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 12:24:44 2009 From: roachboy at gmail.com (Stephen Hastings-King) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:24:44 -0500 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a5562340901210924m23df2ea6w5b60f262fc2ef46b@mail.gmail.com> what i took from the clark/nicholson-smith piece as a more generally important statement---which conditions the repackaging of debord et al into a kind of situationism-lite--is the disastrous consequences of the appropriation of the history of the left--and the french left in particular--by that strange cluster of "theory" based university programs, which have reduced its history to a set of background memes against which the normal science of close readings could be positioned in order to make them appear as something they fundamentally are not---radical political actions. this is symptomatic of a more general shearing off of the history of the left. if you want a nice, 3-hour confrontation with the degree to which this shearing-off has happened, try to find chris marker's film "le fond de l'air est rouge" and watch it. where did that history go? what happened to it? how did it get erased? behind that, another erasure--of groups like socialisme ou barbarie behind the rise of the new left. i spent way too long working on the history of s ou b and ran into exactly the limits clark and nicholson-smith are talking about, (which are purely sociological matters.) you can't really think in terms of radical politics unless you know the past, even though at this point knowing the tradition functions mostly to situate arguments for closure (in a decon sense)... btw i think the art/politics thing is obviously a false choice. early on, the simple fact of the matter is that debord had a trust fund and was interested in layout and intermedia experiments and so had both the interest and the means to combine the two. most of the other, smaller left organizations of the time were using mimeograph machines to copy typescripts for tracts and such, and defaulted into relatively traditional looks for their more polished outputs--socialisme ou barbarie is probably the most important radical political journal to have happened since world war 2, but it's nothing particularly interesting as an object to look at. the situationist journal was quite otherwise, and that attention to look was as important as what the situ were saying in many cases in attracting folk to them. when i interviewed many of the old barbares, particularly among the folk who came into the group after 1956 and who were involved with debord et al, the importance of this was pointed out to me again and again. a newer radical politics should have a new look, but one that extends to the organization of information itself, which is performed via layout. ================= > > > but in any case the idea of culture-jamming has been raised here in > the past > witness the microsound drop-lifting project > maybe time to dust it off and infuse it with some new ideas? > during the revolt/"riots" in greece a few weeks ago, a group of students took over an athens television station for a short time. they held up signs that said things like "stop watching and go out onto the streets". this made me wonder how plausible it would be to jam television network satellite feeds by superimposing occaisonal unauthorized streams of images/audio....i have no idea about what this might require, but it amuses me to think that it's possible-----and what it might mean to simply disrupt the top-down structure of the main ideological relay system from time to time. just a thought. stephen stephen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/92f22b84/attachment.htm From paulo.mouat at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 12:31:12 2009 From: paulo.mouat at gmail.com (Paulo Mouat) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:31:12 -0500 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <49774F1E.5000304@craque.net> References: <3F0EF001-9316-4EC1-9559-93D848FAA39F@anechoicmedia.com> <4974CEC6.4090106@craque.net> <6171110d0901191824u4fbfc606u4af08571fd43100b@mail.gmail.com> <3a5562340901200737j1fa6ea41pe0c01330d300b279@mail.gmail.com> <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> <3a5562340901210458o4764833dnd6f9946191718470@mail.gmail.com> <49774F1E.5000304@craque.net> Message-ID: <424ce300901210931g231c9dc8tad140f0dffbf2b1c@mail.gmail.com> +1 Eco's "Open Work". > What's interesting about the open work is that it could become anything > or be made FROM anything. > ... > What's also apparent is that we don't necessarily know what's going on. > The approach of the artist doesn't matter, but the end result is the > same. A 20 minute free improvisation with no editing and no assist from > a laptop may sound as complex and 'open' as an extremely well thought > out concept and construction. See e.g. how integral serialism is perceived to be random; to the uninitiated (and I would say, quite a few of the initiated) they are virtually indistinguishable. This phenomenon isn't necessarily exclusive to "open" works. As an aside, it is interesting that the examples Eco talks about are from composers that dabbled with integral serialism (i.e. as closed as a work can be) not long before creating those works. //p http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0 From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 13:08:58 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:08:58 -0500 Subject: [microsound] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <3a5562340901210924m23df2ea6w5b60f262fc2ef46b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3a5562340901210924m23df2ea6w5b60f262fc2ef46b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090121130858042872.b27da7d7@optonline.net> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:24:44 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > early on, the simple fact of the matter is that debord had a trust fund Thanks for these posts Stephen! There's an interview with Henri Lefebvre about DeBord, where he says that Debord's wife earned money by doing horoscopes of horses that was syndicated in the french racing newspapers... Best, C From azimuths at freenet.co.uk Wed Jan 21 14:32:39 2009 From: azimuths at freenet.co.uk (Thanos Chrysakis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:32:39 -0000 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <424ce300901210931g231c9dc8tad140f0dffbf2b1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: the "Open Work" by Eco should be read -I guess- closely with cybernetics and ideas concerning the systemic nature of creation/perception, and what we mean by control, and communication; independently if an artwork has been structured in an open way or not, the experiential aspect of confronting/encountering an art work is always open. That's why significant aesthetic experiences IMO can give us possibilities anew in the individual and the societal aspect. It can turn out easily though that the aesthetic has been turned out into its opposite: anaesthetic Thanos From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 14:44:24 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:44:24 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Marxist aesthetics and Marxist aesthetics... Message-ID: <20090121144424363382.42886593@optonline.net> Hey all- One thing that's been implicit in these recent postings, but not directly remarked upon, is the variety of work that might be termed "Marxist Aesthetics." This isn't something I've thought a great deal about, and many of you will undoubtedly already undertand my point, but here goes. Just to keep things brief, let's consider that there are at least two strain of Marxist aesthetics: the first might be characterized as a dialectical, historical materialism applied to the entire historical and global universe of artworks. This category applies aspects of Marxist thought to better understand cultural products of which only a minority of have been produced under contemporary socialist conditions. In our future classless utopia, presumably we would still want to appreciate and discuss artworks of the capitalist bourgeoisie. Presumably, Duchamp's "Fountain" won't be restocked at the local plumbing supply house. The second might be characterized as the elucidation of an aesthetic, or theory of production, of culture designed to express solidarity with the proletariat. This is the kind of Marxist aesthetics explored in Mao's celebrated Yenan Talks, which book should not be dismissed too quickly. The relation between artists and representatives of the proletariat has never been simple, but art is not a revolutionary force on its own, and the most significant socially-concerned art has been produced in alliances with revolutionary avant-gardes. I'm not here to make an argument for a preference for one type of Marxist aesthetics. Any art work coming from a person grappling with their contemporary material conditions evinces social concern. But I am critical of my class, and frequently wonder about how to honestly approach a wider audience in both content and form. But who today is the proletariat? In the United States, although we have always masked class distinctions with racial characterizations, our industrial workforce is weak and has been shrinking for the last 30-odd years. Andrew Ross has recently published an essay, however, that suggests a redefinition of the proletariat, and most interestly, speculates on the possibility of mutual recognition of the precarious "creative class," and the typically migrant service worker at the bottom of the economic ladder. It's worth a read if only for the very good portrait of temporary creative labor conditions, and the predicament that I imagine many of us find ourselves in: "Not surprisingly for a policy-intensive paradigm, statistics generated about the creative sector have been legion. By contrast, there has been precious little attention to the quality of work life with which such livelihoods are associated. No doubt it is ritually assumed that creative jobs, by their nature, are not de?cient in grati?cation. If anything, their packaging of mental challenges and sensuous self-immersion is perceived to deliver a surplus of pleasure and satisfaction. Proponents of this line of thinking may well concede that the life of creatives, in the past, has also been associated with misery, frustration and deprivation, but the given wisdom is that those pitfalls were primarily the result of economic inattention and social marginalization. In a milieu where creativity is celebrated on all sides, such drawbacks will surely dissolve. Yet the ethnographic evidence on knowledge and creative industry workplaces shows that job grati?cation, for creatives, still comes at a heavy sacri?cial cost ? longer hours in pursuit of the satisfying ?nish, price discounts in return for aesthetic recognition, self-exploitation in response to the gift of autonomy, and dispensability in exchange for ?exibility. If policymakers were to undertake official surveys of the quality of work life, they would find the old formula for creative work very much alive and well in its newly marketized environment. In this respect, arguably the most instrumentally valuable aspect of the creative work traditions is the carry-over of coping strategies, developed over centuries, to help endure a feast-or-famine economy in return for the promise of success and acclaim. The combination of this coping mentality with a production code of aesthetic perfectibility is a godsend for managers looking for employees capable of self-discipline under the most extreme job pressure. It is no surprise, then, that the ?artist? has been seen as the new model worker for high-skill, high-reward employment." From jasonw22 at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 14:53:47 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:53:47 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Marxist aesthetics and Marxist aesthetics... In-Reply-To: <20090121144424363382.42886593@optonline.net> References: <20090121144424363382.42886593@optonline.net> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901211153w6f64c9fbl4b17794037e0a8af@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, well that hits close to home. On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Charles Turner wrote: > > Yet the ethnographic evidence on knowledge and creative industry > workplaces shows that job grati?cation, for creatives, still comes at a > heavy sacri?cial cost ? longer hours in pursuit of the satisfying > ?nish, price discounts in return for aesthetic recognition, > self-exploitation in response to the gift of autonomy, and > dispensability in exchange for ?exibility. If policymakers were to > undertake official surveys of the quality of work life, they would find > the old formula for creative work very much alive and well in its newly > marketized environment. In this respect, arguably the most > instrumentally valuable aspect of the creative work traditions is the > carry-over of coping strategies, developed over centuries, to help > endure a feast-or-famine economy in return for the promise of success > and acclaim. The combination of this coping mentality with a production > code of aesthetic perfectibility is a godsend for managers looking for > employees capable of self-discipline under the most extreme job > pressure. It is no surprise, then, that the 'artist' has been seen as > the new model worker for high-skill, high-reward employment." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/7a6b34ec/attachment.htm From benreviug at yahoo.com Wed Jan 21 16:45:32 2009 From: benreviug at yahoo.com (guiver ben) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:45:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <766210.4891.qm@web52008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> well maybe the course i was on was a bit boring. maybe i was young and a bit all over the place. i got much more excited by my guitar and mixing records, and the possibilities afforded by decks. and drum machines, and pedals...and like i said earlier, i was being a bit gobshitey... i also found it hard being in an environment where, like the article Kim ref'd, people were a bit blinkered in some ways. i played at a gig in a curch my mate organised - it sold out in a day - and his art tutor was pretty condeming of the 'fake art', as he saw it, within the venue. i mean it wasnt like basquiat, or renior, or that sort of thing, but his relfex action was to reject, and write off, immediately, as a sort of defence. i think once you say 'politics' instead of POLITICS it becomes much more relevant and meaningful. i have the 'politics of noise' book though i have not yet had the time or motivation to read it fully. other commitments, etc etc i think what you say is interesting as once you get to politics it becomes more a study of relationships, like once you get away from psychoanalytic dogma and ritual psychoanalysis becomes a useful and interesting way to study the politics / relationships of different aspects of the mind/personality. but some people take to politics or psychoanalysis like religion, they want something defining and concrete, and i dont think the world is like that. POLITICS per say, well, i'm sceptical, i think it can become like religion, dogmatic and unthinking, also impersonal and wooden. with rather lethal consequences also, politics probably ranks with religion as a killer i think. perhaps when you refer to ?politics is the sphere neither of an end in itself nor > of means > subordinated to an end; rather, it is the sphere of a pure > mediality > without end intended as the field of human action and of > human thought? you might be talking about something nearer philosophy. i dont mean to split hairs, but certainly in england when people say politics a lot of people i know, including myself, dive for cover. they dont want to get involved in something crude and which is often a displacement activity / acting out for, or of, unthought / unconscious thoughts and feelings. its sad, as there's a lot fo power there, but anyway i dont think this thread is so much about that sort fo politics, but what i am saying is that it's easy to end up in that position in other mediums. thats why i ref'd hunter s thompson, as he seemed to have a way of making things very engaging without drying them out or making them boring at all. maybe thats a bit of an idealistic position, although i once attended several seminars on boredom at the philedlphia assocation's introductory course in psychoanalytic psychotherapy, with john heaton as the lecturer, and they were fascinating. i guess personality is as much of a factor as anything else in the animation of a subject: a difference/ balance(ing act) between what you know and who you are. i am aware of this dynamic in myself, and how easy it is to end up being a talking dictionary, and the pleasures of avoiding this with a more real engagement. liking your site (sirr-ecords.com), btw. ben --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Paulo Raposo wrote: > From: Paulo Raposo > Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' > To: microsound at microsound.org > Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 3:01 AM > really perplexing that a politics graduate claims politics > as a poor > way to discuss sound/music. > and more intriguing that someone that is, we hope, > interested in > politics, cannot find a way within it > to discuss and think about sound (activity). > Is sound and music separable from political realm and its > ruling > paradigms? > what is an author (like Foucault asked)? where does he come > from? what > is made of? > or are we in such an oblivious condition that we tend to > aestheticize > sound and music as the fascist attempted to aestheticize > politics? > the great living philosopher Giorgio Agamben wrote: > ?politics is the sphere neither of an end in itself nor > of means > subordinated to an end; rather, it is the sphere of a pure > mediality > without end intended as the field of human action and of > human thought? > > and speaking of Agamben, for those interested there's > great stuff here > http://v2v.cc/v2v/The_Power_and_the_Glory > and a lot more easy to find in yotube on paradigm and > contemporaneity. > > paulo raposo > http://www.sirr-ecords.com > > On Jan 20, 2009, at 8:19 PM, guiver ben wrote: > > > i think politics (and im a politics graduate) are > often a poor way > > to discuss sound/music. > > > > i like authors / people who are a bit more emotionally > literate: i > > think the alt indie scene (well the more mainstream > alt indie > > scene ) in the 90's was compared by someone to > going to church, > > which i found quite amusing. it was the straight faced > ness of it > > which i think appealed to the joker...sometimes things > are so > > wooden, it bores the shit out of me and kills the life > in things. > > > > satire might be a good place to start. pisses of all > those pofaced > > types to begin with, and brings in humour, which is > surely an under- > > rated quality in any kind of communication. > > > > that said i wouldnt wish to dismiss anyone who wanted > to discuss > > something they found very serious, i just think > there's a danger of > > taking some things too seriously. and russell brands a > situationist, > > apparently... > > > > can anyone think of a good article / paper they read > on music that > > made them laugh? i'd be most interested. > > > > best > > > > ben > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/20/09, CraqueMat > wrote: > > > >> From: CraqueMat > >> Subject: Re: [microsound] 'that's > edutainment' > >> To: microsound at microsound.org > >> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 8:07 PM > >> Is there a way to talk about music without using > ism's? > >> > >> I'm not being an ass, this is genuine > curiosity. > >> > >> Sometimes I'm bothered by the way I can't > be a part > >> of a conversation > >> just because I haven't had time to read a book > (and I > >> read a lot). > >> > >> Damian Stewart wrote: > >>> Stephen Hastings-King wrote: > >>> > >>>> 2. these days, everyone's a > situationist. > >>> > >>> could you explain this a little? i only came > across > >> the situationists quite > >>> recently... > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> microsound mailing list > >> microsound at microsound.org > >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From cyborgk at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 17:02:21 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:02:21 -0600 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901211402i2740d911j44848cde990632b9@mail.gmail.com> I'm going to jump in here and say that this book is highly ripe for critique, although I haven't read it in so long that I'm not prepared to do so. Nevertheless I seem to remember quite a bit of his concepts as being rather simplistic and not really getting into the "Political Economy of Music" ... ie. as I recall his book really glosses over both politics, and economics ... On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:14 PM, David Eng wrote: > I'm going to jump in here and suggest "Noise: The Political Economy of > Music" by Jacques Attali. > From damian at frey.co.nz Wed Jan 21 17:27:31 2009 From: damian at frey.co.nz (Damian Stewart) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:27:31 +0100 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <686ba4e40901211402i2740d911j44848cde990632b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <686ba4e40901211402i2740d911j44848cde990632b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4977A153.5080903@frey.co.nz> David Powers wrote: > I'm going to jump in here and say that this book is highly ripe for > critique, although I haven't read it in so long that I'm not prepared > to do so. Nevertheless I seem to remember quite a bit of his concepts i remember finding this http://www.notbored.org/attali.html , midway through reading /Noise/, and it changed my perspective on it. -- damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz From kim at anechoicmedia.com Wed Jan 21 17:40:06 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:40:06 -0800 Subject: [microsound] debord Message-ID: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090105/clover?rel=hp_books From cyborgk at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 17:45:18 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:45:18 -0600 Subject: [microsound] 'that's edutainment' In-Reply-To: <4977A153.5080903@frey.co.nz> References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <686ba4e40901211402i2740d911j44848cde990632b9@mail.gmail.com> <4977A153.5080903@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901211445g61d99f1bj55360bf327d56529@mail.gmail.com> Yes, I had forgotten about that, thanks Damian! ~David On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Damian Stewart wrote: > David Powers wrote: >> I'm going to jump in here and say that this book is highly ripe for >> critique, although I haven't read it in so long that I'm not prepared >> to do so. Nevertheless I seem to remember quite a bit of his concepts > > i remember finding this http://www.notbored.org/attali.html , midway > through reading /Noise/, and it changed my perspective on it. > > -- > damian stewart | skype: damiansnz | damian at frey.co.nz > frey | live art with machines | http://www.frey.co.nz > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From bp at zonar.net Wed Jan 21 19:15:20 2009 From: bp at zonar.net (bp at zonar.net) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:15:20 -0500 Subject: [microsound] {Spam?} unsubscribe Message-ID: <380-22009142201520299@M2W025.mail2web.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting From cyborgk at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 20:28:50 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:28:50 -0600 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music Message-ID: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> Hi there, Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can then be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I seem to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow one to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free here. Sorry for the shoptalk but I figured this was a good place to ask. ~David From maurice at mac.com Wed Jan 21 20:41:51 2009 From: maurice at mac.com (Maurice Rickard) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:41:51 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music In-Reply-To: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> References: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4977CEDF.8000701@mac.com> David Powers wrote: > Hi there, > > Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a > nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can then > be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a > slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I seem > to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow one > to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free > here. Why not go in with Audacity or some other two-track editor? That way you can choose your cut points as opposed to leaving it to the software to decide. (Granted, this requires listening over and over to snippets of your source material...but knowing your material is no bad thing.) -- Maurice Rickard http://mauricerickard.com/ | http://onezeromusic.com/ From cyborgk at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 20:58:18 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:58:18 -0600 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music In-Reply-To: <4977CEDF.8000701@mac.com> References: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> <4977CEDF.8000701@mac.com> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901211758w7fd0ac0l74126a945ac9a9e3@mail.gmail.com> I could but considering the length of the piece and the number of slices this could easily take a couple hours as opposed to a minute! Maybe I'm lazy but I figure let machines do what machines are good at... ~David On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Maurice Rickard wrote: > David Powers wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a >> nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can then >> be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a >> slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I seem >> to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow one >> to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free >> here. > > Why not go in with Audacity or some other two-track editor? That way > you can choose your cut points as opposed to leaving it to the software > to decide. (Granted, this requires listening over and over to snippets > of your source material...but knowing your material is no bad thing.) > > -- > > Maurice Rickard > http://mauricerickard.com/ | http://onezeromusic.com/ > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From michael.north at sympatico.ca Wed Jan 21 21:03:54 2009 From: michael.north at sympatico.ca (Michael North) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:03:54 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Surround Sound Mics and Field Recording Set-Ups Recs? In-Reply-To: <0E123380-F0E6-4EDC-80EB-992CACCD1B91@agxivatein.com> References: <384513.52942.qm@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0E123380-F0E6-4EDC-80EB-992CACCD1B91@agxivatein.com> Message-ID: <453B2F6D-64E0-4313-B7E8-D179ACA22945@sympatico.ca> It should be noted that the Soundfield mic's are NOT for surround recording...they are for first order Ambisonic recording which is/and isn't 'surround' sound as such...a good reference site is ambisonic.net which has alot of info on ambisonic/5.1/7.1 formats and tools for recording and playback....... On 20-Jan-09, at 9:48 PM, Marinos Koutsomichalis wrote: > > soundfield manufactures some great mics.. > they are quite top-notch and accordingly priced.. > > > > On 21 ??? 2009, at 2:25 ??, margaret noble wrote: > >> Hello List, >> >> I was hoping to get a few recommendations on surround sound mics >> and also an audio card that would work with a Mac laptop to >> capture surround sound recordings without the need for electrical >> power. >> >> Thanks! >> >> http://margaretnoble.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound Michael North http://tiny.cc/D116v http://tiny.cc/wIMHz http://www.pertin-nce.com michael.north at sympatico.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090121/938e1b99/attachment-0001.htm From palace at guero.sr.unh.edu Wed Jan 21 21:17:21 2009 From: palace at guero.sr.unh.edu (Michael Palace) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:17:21 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music References: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have written code in matlab and python to do this. That is what I would suggest. Python is free. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Powers" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:28 PM Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music > Hi there, > > Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a > nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can then > be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a > slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I seem > to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow one > to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free > here. > > Sorry for the shoptalk but I figured this was a good place to ask. > > ~David > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From vze26m98 at optonline.net Wed Jan 21 22:01:07 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:01:07 -0500 Subject: [microsound] 'that's attali' In-Reply-To: <4977A153.5080903@frey.co.nz> References: <222172.12123.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <686ba4e40901211402i2740d911j44848cde990632b9@mail.gmail.com> <4977A153.5080903@frey.co.nz> Message-ID: <20090121220107529020.39c80473@optonline.net> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:27:31 +0100, Damian Stewart wrote: > David Powers wrote: >> I'm going to jump in here and say that this book is highly ripe for >> critique, although I haven't read it in so long that I'm not prepared >> to do so. Nevertheless I seem to remember quite a bit of his concepts > > i remember finding this http://www.notbored.org/attali.html , midway > through reading /Noise/, and it changed my perspective on it. Nice to know he's not a "doctrinaire" leftist, I was pretty worried... 'I don't have a computer - I've got Jacques Attali' By Ben Hall Published: January 23 2008 02:00 | Last updated: January 23 2008 02:00 "I don't have a computer, I've got Jacques Attali," Fran?ois Mitterrand, France's Socialist president, used to say of his then principal special adviser and confident, writes Ben Hall in Paris. Two decades later, President Nicolas Sarkozy decided he needed some Attali brain-power to help solve France's economic malaise. Mr Attali was considered a clever choice, not least because the 64-year-old economist hails from the left, providing the centre-right president with some political cover. But Mr Attali is no doctrinaire leftist - and has even been tipped as a possible minister in Mr Sarkozy's government. A product of France's elite education system for public servants, he is part of the French cross-party nexus of business, finance and government. He has also worked as an academic economist and was the founding president of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, though later stood down over allegations of mismanagement. He is now a business consultant, runs a micro-finance firm and is a blogger and prolific author, on subjects ranging from the life of Ghandi to music and futurology. Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009 From batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com Thu Jan 22 00:39:12 2009 From: batuhan at batuhanbozkurt.com (Batuhan Bozkurt) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 07:39:12 +0200 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music In-Reply-To: <686ba4e40901211758w7fd0ac0l74126a945ac9a9e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> <4977CEDF.8000701@mac.com> <686ba4e40901211758w7fd0ac0l74126a945ac9a9e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi David, You might want to check out meapsoft. I don't really remember if it can actually extract the slices and write each to different files, but at the very least, it gives you exact sample locations of onsets in a file which you can parse and hack up a code to do the splitting if you can code. http://www.meapsoft.org/ Best BB. On Jan 22, 2009, at 3:58 AM, David Powers wrote: > I could but considering the length of the piece and the number of > slices this could easily take a couple hours as opposed to a minute! > Maybe I'm lazy but I figure let machines do what machines are good > at... > ~David > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Maurice Rickard > wrote: >> David Powers wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a >>> nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can >>> then >>> be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a >>> slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I >>> seem >>> to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow >>> one >>> to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free >>> here. >> >> Why not go in with Audacity or some other two-track editor? That way >> you can choose your cut points as opposed to leaving it to the >> software >> to decide. (Granted, this requires listening over and over to >> snippets >> of your source material...but knowing your material is no bad thing.) >> >> -- >> >> Maurice Rickard >> http://mauricerickard.com/ | http://onezeromusic.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From fbar at footils.org Thu Jan 22 02:07:41 2009 From: fbar at footils.org (Frank Barknecht) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:07:41 +0100 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music In-Reply-To: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> References: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090122070741.GA6244@footils.org> Hallo, David Powers hat gesagt: // David Powers wrote: > Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a > nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can then > be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a > slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I seem > to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow one > to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free > here. Try Aubio from www.aubio.org Ciao -- Frank From cyborgk at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 06:12:09 2009 From: cyborgk at gmail.com (David Powers) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:12:09 -0600 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music In-Reply-To: References: <686ba4e40901211728o63f6a709l4df7306ced463ffe@mail.gmail.com> <4977CEDF.8000701@mac.com> <686ba4e40901211758w7fd0ac0l74126a945ac9a9e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <686ba4e40901220312p2b087e2fpbc8004d4f2d55924@mail.gmail.com> Yes this was the software I was looking for in particular to try, thanks!!! On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Batuhan Bozkurt wrote: > Hi David, > > You might want to check out meapsoft. I don't really remember if it > can actually extract the slices and write each to different files, but > at the very least, it gives you exact sample locations of onsets in a > file which you can parse and hack up a code to do the splitting if you > can code. > http://www.meapsoft.org/ > > Best > BB. > On Jan 22, 2009, at 3:58 AM, David Powers wrote: > >> I could but considering the length of the piece and the number of >> slices this could easily take a couple hours as opposed to a minute! >> Maybe I'm lazy but I figure let machines do what machines are good >> at... >> ~David >> >> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Maurice Rickard >> wrote: >>> David Powers wrote: >>>> Hi there, >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any advice on the easiest way to chop up a >>>> nonrhythmic orchestral piece into some types of slices which can >>>> then >>>> be loaded into something like Kontakt (I'm on PC)... or know of a >>>> slicer that doesn't impose the idea that the slice is a 'beat'? I >>>> seem >>>> to remember some (free) program that would analyze audio and allow >>>> one >>>> to manipulate little pieces. I'm really looking of something free >>>> here. >>> >>> Why not go in with Audacity or some other two-track editor? That way >>> you can choose your cut points as opposed to leaving it to the >>> software >>> to decide. (Granted, this requires listening over and over to >>> snippets >>> of your source material...but knowing your material is no bad thing.) >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Maurice Rickard >>> http://mauricerickard.com/ | http://onezeromusic.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From lastnightsofparis at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:07:22 2009 From: lastnightsofparis at gmail.com (David Eng) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:07:22 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Finally! Message-ID: As an ambient composer, I've been waiting for something like this for years! http://www.possecrewensemble.com/as606/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090123/0b23fae3/attachment.htm From grahammiller at sympatico.ca Fri Jan 23 12:08:38 2009 From: grahammiller at sympatico.ca (Graham Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:08:38 -0500 Subject: [microsound] revolutionary new ambient sequencer :) Message-ID: <39032803-E3B4-445C-9A47-7E0B8E8049FD@sympatico.ca> http://www.possecrewensemble.com/as606/ From craque at craque.net Fri Jan 23 12:12:18 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:12:18 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Finally! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4979FA72.4040302@craque.net> Ah yeah a friend of mine asked me if I have ever used that! I want four. David Eng wrote: > As an ambient composer, I've been waiting for something like this for years! > > http://www.possecrewensemble.com/as606/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From lastnightsofparis at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:14:45 2009 From: lastnightsofparis at gmail.com (David Eng) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:14:45 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Finally! In-Reply-To: <4979FA72.4040302@craque.net> References: <4979FA72.4040302@craque.net> Message-ID: I'm glad the technology has finally caught up with our innovation! ;) On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:12 AM, CraqueMat wrote: > Ah yeah a friend of mine asked me if I have ever used that! > > I want four. > > David Eng wrote: > > As an ambient composer, I've been waiting for something like this for > years! > > > > http://www.possecrewensemble.com/as606/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090123/a74361aa/attachment-0001.htm From craque at craque.net Fri Jan 23 12:20:26 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:20:26 -0800 Subject: [microsound] revolutionary new ambient sequencer :) In-Reply-To: <39032803-E3B4-445C-9A47-7E0B8E8049FD@sympatico.ca> References: <39032803-E3B4-445C-9A47-7E0B8E8049FD@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4979FC5A.70801@craque.net> Actually, if music history serves me right, didn't Crumb do this first? Graham Miller wrote: > http://www.possecrewensemble.com/as606/ > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From eduardoacosta at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:28:24 2009 From: eduardoacosta at gmail.com (Eduardo Acosta) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:28:24 +0100 Subject: [microsound] Finally! In-Reply-To: References: <4979FA72.4040302@craque.net> Message-ID: <9d0ec1d60901230928u261cc598y412b1b05ac9872fe@mail.gmail.com> Is it compatible with ableton Live???? where are the vst version please??? _____________________________ www.myspace.com/normaablock www.myspace.com/normalab www.normablock.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090123/ff8c3ad4/attachment.htm From js0000 at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:30:29 2009 From: js0000 at gmail.com (john saylor) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:30:29 -0500 Subject: [microsound] revolutionary new ambient sequencer :) In-Reply-To: <4979FC5A.70801@craque.net> References: <39032803-E3B4-445C-9A47-7E0B8E8049FD@sympatico.ca> <4979FC5A.70801@craque.net> Message-ID: hey On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:20 PM, CraqueMat wrote: > Actually, if music history serves me right, didn't Crumb do this first? wikipedia says jelly roll morton or scott joplin, but gives leo ornstein and henry cowell credit for exploring them in classical music. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_cluster -- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ] From craque at craque.net Fri Jan 23 12:39:29 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:39:29 -0800 Subject: [microsound] revolutionary new ambient sequencer :) In-Reply-To: References: <39032803-E3B4-445C-9A47-7E0B8E8049FD@sympatico.ca> <4979FC5A.70801@craque.net> Message-ID: <497A00D1.40306@craque.net> Cowell, off by a few years, but I was close. :) john saylor wrote: > hey > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:20 PM, CraqueMat wrote: >> Actually, if music history serves me right, didn't Crumb do this first? > > wikipedia says jelly roll morton or scott joplin, but gives leo > ornstein and henry cowell credit for exploring them in classical > music. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_cluster > From craque at craque.net Fri Jan 23 12:40:19 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:40:19 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Finally! In-Reply-To: <9d0ec1d60901230928u261cc598y412b1b05ac9872fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <4979FA72.4040302@craque.net> <9d0ec1d60901230928u261cc598y412b1b05ac9872fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497A0103.10004@craque.net> You must add a $300 Akai controller module that is compatible with the AS606! ;) Eduardo Acosta wrote: > > > Is it compatible with ableton Live???? > where are the vst version please??? > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________ > > www.myspace.com/normaablock > www.myspace.com/normalab > www.normablock.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From davidgriffin at rogers.com Fri Jan 23 12:45:49 2009 From: davidgriffin at rogers.com (davidgriffin at rogers.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:45:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] Finally! Message-ID: <462837.27720.qm@web88202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Musique concrete? David You must add a $300 Akai controller module that is compatible with the AS606! ;) Eduardo Acosta wrote: > > > Is it compatible with ableton Live???? > where are the vst version please??? > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________ > > www.myspace.com/normaablock > www.myspace.com/normalab > www.normablock.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090123/0cf78a37/attachment.htm From dfkettle at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:54:41 2009 From: dfkettle at gmail.com (David) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:54:41 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Chopping up nonrhythmic music Message-ID: Octave is an open-source alternative to Matlab that's mostly (not 100%) compatible. It runs unders Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, Sun Solaris and OS/2. You could try it as well. I'm currently working on an add-on package for Octave for sound/music processing. If anyone would like to do some beta-testing or just take it for a test-drive, let me know. I've posted a message on the Octave mailing list asking for volunteers to do some testing, but so far there hasn't been any response from anyone that's involved in producing music or sound art. http://www.octave.org David. From craque at craque.net Fri Jan 23 13:58:45 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:58:45 -0800 Subject: [microsound] homebuilt sample player (was: why i'm not excited about Live) In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901191639t3200e918q7e736c9d91914a9b@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> <60500359-638B-4561-BDAC-FA51589E622D@sympatico.ca> <497510C9.9030403@craque.net> <7a37090d0901191639t3200e918q7e736c9d91914a9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497A1365.3020407@craque.net> So here's what I ordered that I think will work: The Arduino Duemilanove, of course: http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=50 And the "Wave Shield": http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_21&products_id=94 The Wave Shield (DIY-buildable, btw, but I got a pre-built one, so there's definitely some bending/hacking possibilities there) has an SD card reader and will play 22KHz/16bit mono files - plenty of resolution for noisy rhythmic looping. I'll be adding an array of press-buttons or switches to control the Arduino and which files get played. -matt Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:46 PM, CraqueMat > wrote: > > > maybe something i could accomplish with a homebuilt trigger interface, > some flash memory and an Arduino board? > > > I think that's a pretty interesting idea. Would a line-in or two for > creating new samples on the fly over-complicate things too much? > > I've been playing around with the Arduino, and a bit of old fashioned > analog circuitry and I'm starting to get pretty interested in low-cost > homebrew electronic sound. I don't have anything to show for it just > yet, but if you end up with a schematic or an Arduino sketch you like to > use, or know of others who are creating and making accessible great > stuff in this vein, please do share. > > -Jason > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From jcespinosa at aol.com Fri Jan 23 14:10:08 2009 From: jcespinosa at aol.com (jcespinosa at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:10:08 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Finally! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB4BA557B78ACA-17E4-629@WEBMAIL-MC14.sysops.aol.com> I'd like order 2! One for me and another for a friend! Where can I get them? Maybe I should wait for someone to steal one so?I can buy one on Craigslist! JC -----Original Message----- From: David Eng To: microsound at microsound.org Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:07 pm Subject: [microsound] Finally! As an ambient composer, I've been waiting for something like this for years! ? http://www.possecrewensemble.com/as606/ _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090123/0f4044e0/attachment-0001.htm From jasonw22 at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 15:27:45 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:27:45 -0800 Subject: [microsound] homebuilt sample player (was: why i'm not excited about Live) In-Reply-To: <497A1365.3020407@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <4974CE9E.6000703@craque.net> <60500359-638B-4561-BDAC-FA51589E622D@sympatico.ca> <497510C9.9030403@craque.net> <7a37090d0901191639t3200e918q7e736c9d91914a9b@mail.gmail.com> <497A1365.3020407@craque.net> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901231227w259a087fhfbd2310d3cde68b@mail.gmail.com> The Wave Shield looks great. The FAQ says there's no way to record audio with it, but oh well, that'll be a project for another day. re: http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_21&products_id=94 -Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090123/25e426e4/attachment.htm From bbrace at eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 17:55:54 2009 From: bbrace at eskimo.com ({ brad brace }) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:55:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] old cd players Message-ID: so, I have two portable mp3/cd players that no longer read any kind of disc, although they light-up and try their level best... is there some kind of microtonal hack possible?? --- bbs: brad brace sound --- --- http://69.64.229.114:8000 --- From benreviug at yahoo.com Sat Jan 24 07:03:02 2009 From: benreviug at yahoo.com (guiver ben) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 04:03:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] emu e64 sampler help required with setting lfo's Message-ID: <70656.77595.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> dear Microsounders, hello. sorry to bother but i've been trying to set the lfo's on my E64 to no avail. i've followed the manual's instructions, and the os on the sampler is EOS v3.00b, circa 1997... i've been trying to get the heavily mod'd dubstep bass 'waaaaaaap' sound via the lfo, as in a jen sx-1000/moog kindof situation. but i am wondering if i've actually got it right and its just that the lfo's on the sampler work differently / are weak / are a waste of time. does anyone have expereince of this function on this machine please? all the best ben From sofus at email.dk Sat Jan 24 07:12:30 2009 From: sofus at email.dk (Sofus Forsberg) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:12:30 +0100 Subject: [microsound] emu e64 sampler help required with setting lfo's In-Reply-To: <70656.77595.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <70656.77595.qm@web52009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497B05AE.1030903@email.dk> you need to assign the LFO to the filter and or the amp in the modulation matrix on the EMU samplers you have full modular flexibility, so almost everything can be assigned to everything, you just need to do it right. dunno if this helps i still have my E4, though its like 6-7 years since its been turned on, but it was my first piece of electronic gear, so i used to know it inside out ;) guiver ben wrote: > dear Microsounders, > > hello. sorry to bother but i've been trying to set the lfo's on my E64 to no avail. i've followed the manual's instructions, and the os on the sampler is EOS v3.00b, circa 1997... > > i've been trying to get the heavily mod'd dubstep bass 'waaaaaaap' sound via the lfo, as in a jen sx-1000/moog kindof situation. but i am wondering if i've actually got it right and its just that the lfo's on the sampler work differently / are weak / are a waste of time. > > does anyone have expereince of this function on this machine please? > > all the best > > ben > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > . > > From dulcettrecords at hotmail.com Sat Jan 24 14:25:30 2009 From: dulcettrecords at hotmail.com (Robert Rudas) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:25:30 -0800 Subject: [microsound] free mp3 download of unreleased work from Michell Akiyama, Dino Felipe, Gregg Kowalsky, Ariel Pinks Haunted Graffiti, Romulo Del Castillo of Phoenecia and more...... Message-ID: My apologies as I understand that this is not the proper forum to be promoting releases however, since it is a free download of music containing several artists that fit within the realm of microsound, I found this to be pertinent to the folks on this list. Since there is no profiteering involved in this endeavor, I thought that it might be ok. I wanted to give everybody a heads up that an mp3 compilation download containing unreleased works from several great artists is available here: http://www.dulcettrecords.com This is the track list: Our Lost Summer Compilation Artists 00:00 Former Selv - Evalivia 03:58 Dino Felipe - 11 07:14 The Jon McMillion Band - Floating Outcomes 12:16 Ariel Pink's Haunted Graffiti - Chart Beep 16:21 Mitchell Akiyama - Ends Funds 20:28 Mountain Party - HoniedMilk_Ladygrave 22:39 Obelus - Kern Mantle 27:54 Gregg Kowalsky - For Vibraphone and Loose Change 34:16 Dino Felipe - 14 37:28 Fat Girls Anonymous - Wrist Slasher 40:21 Son of Rose - Day New 44:08 (Dino Felipe/Dan Laburu/Nerikatsu) collaboration - untitled 47:19 Bobby Birdman - All Black 50:42 Climax Golden Twins - Twin Funeral 52:35 Nerikatsu - untitled 54:28 Yann Novak - The Miller Garden Revisited 01:01:23 Holy Sons (drummer for Grails and Om solo Project) - untitled 01:05:05 Paul Beaudry - untitled 01:11:51 Ateleia - Despite Straight Lines 01:17:03 Bill Horist - untitled 01:24:28 Hair_Tapes - untitled 01:30:45 Nerikatsu - We Were When We Were 01:32:16 Audiose My Angel - trapped in sound 01:38:42 Romulo Del Castillo (of Phoenecia) - Nebuuu 01:44:35 Sketchy - untitled 01:47:04 Let's Go Outside - a summer missed Best wishes, Robert _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail??more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090124/498a7227/attachment.htm From tsazmaniac at yahoo.com Mon Jan 26 12:52:44 2009 From: tsazmaniac at yahoo.com (jeff gburek) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:52:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <20090120173346104707.88252265@optonline.net> Message-ID: <472699.95106.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com> am i still subscribed to this list...this is a test j.ff gbk http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound http://www.idiosyncratics.net/netlabel.html http://www.con-v.org/online.html http://www.djalma.com http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Charles Turner wrote: > From: Charles Turner > Subject: Re: [microsound] making/erasure > To: microsound at microsound.org > Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 3:33 PM > On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King > wrote: > > 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical > aesthetic > > theory takes the work as given for it's point of > departure. > > bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory > differ primarily > > in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on > the artwork. > > in both, the processes of making are erased behind the > work as > > totality and are replaced with one or another version > of the mythical > > Artist. > > it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks > that await > > us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to > undo this > > category and the constraints that enframe it. > > this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have > addressed it one > > way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of > cases, the way folk > > went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements > after fairly > > straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. > > Hi Stephen- > > I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction > between "artistic > value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be > useful. (The first chapter of > his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) > > Morawski was trying to justify both an historical > materialist approach, > and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, > Poussin, and > Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. > > Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that > an artist > instills in an "object" that cause us to relate > to it as such. Artistic > value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the > art object. > (As he points out, people were making art objects long > before there was > any body of aesthetic thought.) > > Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic > values, and an > attempt to come to terms with how general and particular > values > instilled in art objects come to be significant. > > But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. > > Best, Charles > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From tajinder_dhami at hotmail.co.uk Mon Jan 26 18:10:38 2009 From: tajinder_dhami at hotmail.co.uk (tajinder dhami) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:10:38 +0000 Subject: [microsound] PHYSICAL SOUND INSTALLATION Message-ID: hey just wanted to pop up this note for all artist interested in the physical quality of sound. Im presenting 2 new sound sculptures, " TOUCH"a physical stereo sound system and "Quadrophonic" a diy home made quad unit, placed with in a variant temperature atmos. The content consist of field recordings and electro-magnetic encodings in north india, processed and arranged into compositions through digital working processes. works will be produced by artists Tajinder Dhami[ s_ink] Jem Noble { blackout Arts] and upcoming producer Mr Major. For more information see www.myspace.com/S_INK full details up shortly. Hope some of you may be able to make it. and also wandering if anybody would maybe like do a remix for us. Oscillations. Station Gallery Phoenix Warf. Bristol 30 Jan - 28 Feb exhibition open 12-6pm friday to sat Best Regards Tajinder _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail, Messenger, Photos and more - all with the new Windows Live. Get started! http://www.download.live.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090126/8e77bce7/attachment-0001.htm From sofus at email.dk Mon Jan 26 19:24:06 2009 From: sofus at email.dk (Sofus Forsberg) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 01:24:06 +0100 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <472699.95106.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <472699.95106.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497E5426.4010403@email.dk> yes and im not subscribed to the new one :( jeff gburek wrote: > am i still subscribed to this list...this is a test > > j.ff gbk > > http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound > > http://www.idiosyncratics.net/netlabel.html > > http://www.con-v.org/online.html > > http://www.djalma.com > > http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html > > > --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Charles Turner wrote: > > >> From: Charles Turner >> Subject: Re: [microsound] making/erasure >> To: microsound at microsound.org >> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 3:33 PM >> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King >> wrote: >> >>> 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical >>> >> aesthetic >> >>> theory takes the work as given for it's point of >>> >> departure. >> >>> bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory >>> >> differ primarily >> >>> in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on >>> >> the artwork. >> >>> in both, the processes of making are erased behind the >>> >> work as >> >>> totality and are replaced with one or another version >>> >> of the mythical >> >>> Artist. >>> it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks >>> >> that await >> >>> us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to >>> >> undo this >> >>> category and the constraints that enframe it. >>> this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have >>> >> addressed it one >> >>> way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of >>> >> cases, the way folk >> >>> went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements >>> >> after fairly >> >>> straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. >>> >> Hi Stephen- >> >> I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction >> between "artistic >> value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be >> useful. (The first chapter of >> his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) >> >> Morawski was trying to justify both an historical >> materialist approach, >> and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, >> Poussin, and >> Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. >> >> Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that >> an artist >> instills in an "object" that cause us to relate >> to it as such. Artistic >> value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the >> art object. >> (As he points out, people were making art objects long >> before there was >> any body of aesthetic thought.) >> >> Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic >> values, and an >> attempt to come to terms with how general and particular >> values >> instilled in art objects come to be significant. >> >> But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. >> >> Best, Charles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > . > > From laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca Mon Jan 26 19:49:08 2009 From: laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca (Chantale Laplante) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:49:08 -0500 Subject: [microsound] speakers_unwanted noise Message-ID: <637F96BD-6FC7-4F85-BFAC-DFA6C52A7C56@cooptel.qc.ca> Hi everyone, I have bought a pair of speakers (dynamic) krk vxt4 but have not been able to solve the problem of radio waves streaming in... in this case Radio-Canada from which my house is right in line within 2 km... It also picks other crackling radio unwanted noises. Did not have this problem with my other speakers which were going through a nad amp. the krk are going through a Motu 828 I have bought super duper cables, to no avail. Before I try/buy something else... Can this problem be solved? A colleague has come and suggested I call the electrician _ but then someone else told me it is not electrical although could not find a solution _ Anybody else has experienced this problem? Thanks Chantale Laplante From paulo.mouat at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 20:27:52 2009 From: paulo.mouat at gmail.com (Paulo Mouat) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:27:52 -0500 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <497E5426.4010403@email.dk> References: <472699.95106.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <497E5426.4010403@email.dk> Message-ID: <424ce300901261727u7e47264di4dcaebb3bf8f251f@mail.gmail.com> Yes, you are. If you look at the headers, you will see you were replying to a message sent to the "new" list, which is also how you are receiving this reply. What made you think you were not subscribed to it? //p http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0 On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Sofus Forsberg wrote: > yes and im not subscribed to the new one :( > > jeff gburek wrote: >> am i still subscribed to this list...this is a test >> >> j.ff gbk >> >> http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound >> >> http://www.idiosyncratics.net/netlabel.html >> >> http://www.con-v.org/online.html >> >> http://www.djalma.com >> >> http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html >> >> >> --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Charles Turner wrote: >> >> >>> From: Charles Turner >>> Subject: Re: [microsound] making/erasure >>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 3:33 PM >>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King >>> wrote: >>> >>>> 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical >>>> >>> aesthetic >>> >>>> theory takes the work as given for it's point of >>>> >>> departure. >>> >>>> bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory >>>> >>> differ primarily >>> >>>> in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on >>>> >>> the artwork. >>> >>>> in both, the processes of making are erased behind the >>>> >>> work as >>> >>>> totality and are replaced with one or another version >>>> >>> of the mythical >>> >>>> Artist. >>>> it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks >>>> >>> that await >>> >>>> us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to >>>> >>> undo this >>> >>>> category and the constraints that enframe it. >>>> this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have >>>> >>> addressed it one >>> >>>> way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of >>>> >>> cases, the way folk >>> >>>> went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements >>>> >>> after fairly >>> >>>> straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. >>>> >>> Hi Stephen- >>> >>> I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction >>> between "artistic >>> value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be >>> useful. (The first chapter of >>> his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) >>> >>> Morawski was trying to justify both an historical >>> materialist approach, >>> and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, >>> Poussin, and >>> Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. >>> >>> Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that >>> an artist >>> instills in an "object" that cause us to relate >>> to it as such. Artistic >>> value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the >>> art object. >>> (As he points out, people were making art objects long >>> before there was >>> any body of aesthetic thought.) >>> >>> Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic >>> values, and an >>> attempt to come to terms with how general and particular >>> values >>> instilled in art objects come to be significant. >>> >>> But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. >>> >>> Best, Charles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> . >> >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From craque at craque.net Mon Jan 26 20:08:33 2009 From: craque at craque.net (craquemattic) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:08:33 -0800 Subject: [microsound] speakers_unwanted noise In-Reply-To: <637F96BD-6FC7-4F85-BFAC-DFA6C52A7C56@cooptel.qc.ca> References: <637F96BD-6FC7-4F85-BFAC-DFA6C52A7C56@cooptel.qc.ca> Message-ID: <1FB74959-A36D-46BB-BB8D-2A57294C5D87@craque.net> Radio interference is definitely an 'electrical' issue, but an electrician wont be able to do anything. Any length of conductive material has the ability to pick up radio waves. Try shortening the cable length, if possible. On Jan 26, 2009, at 16:49, Chantale Laplante wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have bought a pair of speakers (dynamic) krk vxt4 > but have not been able to solve the problem of radio waves streaming > in... in this case Radio-Canada from which my house is right in line > within 2 km... It also picks other crackling radio unwanted noises. > Did not have this problem with my other speakers which were going > through a nad amp. the krk are going through a Motu 828 > > I have bought super duper cables, to no avail. > > > Before I try/buy something else... > Can this problem be solved? > > A colleague has come and suggested I call the electrician _ but then > someone else told me it is not electrical although could not find a > solution _ Anybody else has experienced this problem? > > > Thanks > > Chantale Laplante > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From djdualcore at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 21:16:56 2009 From: djdualcore at gmail.com (Neil Clopton) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:16:56 -0600 Subject: [microsound] homebuilt sample player (was: why i'm not excited about Live) Message-ID: <535a89520901261816h21683f7fyf8d281a994fb996d@mail.gmail.com> 12 bit? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090126/251a6d52/attachment.htm From jasonw22 at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 21:25:01 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:25:01 -0800 Subject: [microsound] homebuilt sample player (was: why i'm not excited about Live) In-Reply-To: <535a89520901261816h21683f7fyf8d281a994fb996d@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901261816h21683f7fyf8d281a994fb996d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901261825n7ff48fe0oda1b74e1c40580ef@mail.gmail.com> I believe that is a typo and it should say 16bit. Here's another Arduino shield I just learned about that also allows for recording: http://www.spikenzielabs.com/SpikenzieLabs/VoiceShield.html -J On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Neil Clopton wrote: > > 12 bit? > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090126/051a218d/attachment.htm From bbrace at eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 10:27:46 2009 From: bbrace at eskimo.com ({ brad brace }) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:27:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] speakers_unwanted noise In-Reply-To: <1FB74959-A36D-46BB-BB8D-2A57294C5D87@craque.net> References: <637F96BD-6FC7-4F85-BFAC-DFA6C52A7C56@cooptel.qc.ca> <1FB74959-A36D-46BB-BB8D-2A57294C5D87@craque.net> Message-ID: I have poorly insulated wiring as well. My amplified speakers pick-up static, other tenants' appliances, even passing taxi-radios. The only thing that made a (slight) difference was using a "parallel power line filter" -- a little plug-in power module. { brad brace } <<<<< bbrace at eskimo.com >>>> ~finger for pgp --- bbs: brad brace sound --- --- http://69.64.229.114:8000 --- /:b On Mon, 26 Jan 2009, craquemattic wrote: > Radio interference is definitely an 'electrical' issue, but an > electrician wont be able to do anything. Any length of conductive > material has the ability to pick up radio waves. > > Try shortening the cable length, if possible. > > On Jan 26, 2009, at 16:49, Chantale Laplante > wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I have bought a pair of speakers (dynamic) krk vxt4 > > but have not been able to solve the problem of radio waves streaming > > in... in this case Radio-Canada from which my house is right in line > > within 2 km... It also picks other crackling radio unwanted noises. > > Did not have this problem with my other speakers which were going > > through a nad amp. the krk are going through a Motu 828 > > > > I have bought super duper cables, to no avail. > > > > > > Before I try/buy something else... > > Can this problem be solved? > > > > A colleague has come and suggested I call the electrician _ but then > > someone else told me it is not electrical although could not find a > > solution _ Anybody else has experienced this problem? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Chantale Laplante > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net Tue Jan 27 10:37:03 2009 From: jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net (John Hopkins) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:37:03 -0700 Subject: [microsound] speakers_unwanted noise In-Reply-To: <1FB74959-A36D-46BB-BB8D-2A57294C5D87@craque.net> References: <637F96BD-6FC7-4F85-BFAC-DFA6C52A7C56@cooptel.qc.ca> <1FB74959-A36D-46BB-BB8D-2A57294C5D87@craque.net> Message-ID: >Radio interference is definitely an 'electrical' issue, but an >electrician wont be able to do anything. Any length of conductive >material has the ability to pick up radio waves. > >Try shortening the cable length, if possible. using shielded (coaxial, for example) cable will eliminate much radio-propagation interference, also, multi-stranded (braided - which can be easily home-made) conventional copper cables will cancel certain sources. You might also have cables cut to the exact length necessary to feed the speakers. Likely it's not coming from the speaker cables or the speakers, though you say it didn't exist before -- I'd say it's a combination of a resonance between the amp and the length of the new speaker cables... radio-frequency resonance -- picking up noise -- can be dealt with! jh From bkerr79 at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 11:03:28 2009 From: bkerr79 at gmail.com (Brian Kerr) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:03:28 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Remove me Message-ID: Hello, Please remove from this mailing list. My email is bkerr79 at gmail.com Thank you! Brian Kerr -- From kim at anechoicmedia.com Tue Jan 27 12:06:38 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:06:38 -0800 Subject: [microsound] speakers_unwanted noise Message-ID: there are other lists that are more appropriate for this subject but I'll let this slide since it sounds like you need help first a few questions: - are you running shielded *balanced* cable from your mixer to the speaker inputs? - the krk vxt4 inputs are configured as follows: Input: XLR-1/4 in. TRS Combo 10k Ohm Blanced Pin 1 + Sleeve = Ground Pin 2 + Tip = (+) High Pin 3 + Ring = (-) Low are you sure your cables are TRS and that your sleeves are actually grounded to the mixer chassis and electrical ground? buy a cheap continuity tester at your local Radio Shack or Conrads and check the grounding on your equipment - have you checked for ground loops? - try plugging in your active speakers into a different circuit on the AC power in your house other than that Google for ground loops since there is a lot of info on how to battle grounding and shielding demons From info at xdugef.com Tue Jan 27 13:28:27 2009 From: info at xdugef.com (Xdugef) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:28:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [microsound] Fw: Re: Remove me Message-ID: <958273.71661.qm@web35604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> you can unsub yourself here.. http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > --- On Tue, 1/27/09, Brian Kerr > wrote: > > > From: Brian Kerr > > Subject: [microsound] Remove me > > To: microsound at microsound.org > > Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 10:03 AM > > Hello, > > Please remove from this mailing list. My email is > > bkerr79 at gmail.com > > Thank you! > > Brian Kerr > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From sofus at email.dk Tue Jan 27 13:30:26 2009 From: sofus at email.dk (Sofus Forsberg) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:30:26 +0100 Subject: [microsound] making/erasure In-Reply-To: <424ce300901261727u7e47264di4dcaebb3bf8f251f@mail.gmail.com> References: <472699.95106.qm@web62504.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <497E5426.4010403@email.dk> <424ce300901261727u7e47264di4dcaebb3bf8f251f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <497F52C2.8060006@email.dk> cause it have been so quiet here .... but great, and thanks alot :D Paulo Mouat wrote: > Yes, you are. If you look at the headers, you will see you were > replying to a message sent to the "new" list, which is also how you > are receiving this reply. What made you think you were not subscribed > to it? > > //p > http://www.interdisciplina.org/00.0 > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Sofus Forsberg wrote: > >> yes and im not subscribed to the new one :( >> >> jeff gburek wrote: >> >>> am i still subscribed to this list...this is a test >>> >>> j.ff gbk >>> >>> http://www.futurevessel.com/orphansound >>> >>> http://www.idiosyncratics.net/netlabel.html >>> >>> http://www.con-v.org/online.html >>> >>> http://www.djalma.com >>> >>> http://www.mattin.org/desetxea.html >>> >>> >>> --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Charles Turner wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: Charles Turner >>>> Subject: Re: [microsound] making/erasure >>>> To: microsound at microsound.org >>>> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 3:33 PM >>>> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:37:39 -0500, Stephen Hastings-King >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> 1. the category of aesthetics is a problem. classical >>>>> >>>>> >>>> aesthetic >>>> >>>> >>>>> theory takes the work as given for it's point of >>>>> >>>>> >>>> departure. >>>> >>>> >>>>> bourgeois and materialist forms of aesthetic theory >>>>> >>>>> >>>> differ primarily >>>> >>>> >>>>> in the interpretive frameworks they bring to bear on >>>>> >>>>> >>>> the artwork. >>>> >>>> >>>>> in both, the processes of making are erased behind the >>>>> >>>>> >>>> work as >>>> >>>> >>>>> totality and are replaced with one or another version >>>>> >>>>> >>>> of the mythical >>>> >>>> >>>>> Artist. >>>>> it seems to me that one of the many conceptual tasks >>>>> >>>>> >>>> that await >>>> >>>> >>>>> us--whatever that means--out there in the world is to >>>>> >>>>> >>>> undo this >>>> >>>> >>>>> category and the constraints that enframe it. >>>>> this isn't exactly a new idea---lots of folk have >>>>> >>>>> >>>> addressed it one >>>> >>>> >>>>> way or another since the 60s at least--in alot of >>>>> >>>>> >>>> cases, the way folk >>>> >>>> >>>>> went at it was to tack on autobiographical statements >>>>> >>>>> >>>> after fairly >>>> >>>> >>>>> straightforward aesthetic pronouncements. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Hi Stephen- >>>> >>>> I've always found Stefan Morawski's distinction >>>> between "artistic >>>> value" and "aesthetic valuation" to be >>>> useful. (The first chapter of >>>> his 1974 _Fundamentals_ book sets it out.) >>>> >>>> Morawski was trying to justify both an historical >>>> materialist approach, >>>> and an aesthetics that could encompass neolithic cave art, >>>> Poussin, and >>>> Duchamp/Cage/Fluxus. >>>> >>>> Briefly, he posits artistic values as those attributes that >>>> an artist >>>> instills in an "object" that cause us to relate >>>> to it as such. Artistic >>>> value is then prior to any aesthetic understanding of the >>>> art object. >>>> (As he points out, people were making art objects long >>>> before there was >>>> any body of aesthetic thought.) >>>> >>>> Aesthetics is essentially a judgement of these artistic >>>> values, and an >>>> attempt to come to terms with how general and particular >>>> values >>>> instilled in art objects come to be significant. >>>> >>>> But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. >>>> >>>> Best, Charles >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> microsound mailing list >>>> microsound at microsound.org >>>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > . > > From laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca Tue Jan 27 17:08:13 2009 From: laplante71 at cooptel.qc.ca (Chantale Laplante) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:08:13 -0500 Subject: [microsound] speakers_unwanted noise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After I sent my message yesterday, I also thought this was not the best/appropriate list to do so. (although I did google before hand on the subject...) I am sorry about this. I know microsound is more about content :) than tech stuff. By the way, I sort of followed the thread on music and politics _ All that made me think of Helmut Lachenman who has a very interesting reflexion on/with attitude regarding clich?s. Which could be said to be at the heart of avant-garde or not _ (not that being avant-garde is that essential) but I do agree with him on the importance of being critical of the way we organise our sounds and what this can refer to as a way to question/contest/dare... Two things at the heart of Lachenman discourse that I think are especially interesting_ (my translation from french...) (1) as a composer (artist) to aim at bringing forth the radical aspects of an apparently useless activity; (2) this experience is legitimized by the fact that it becomes, with the mean of a mediatized aesthetic, a challenge to the listener... My 2 cents... on the tech side.... Many thanks to all for your advices. Although I have already done much of what has been suggested, there are a few tips I had not explored yet and this might just give me the answer... Chantale On 27-Jan-09, at 12:06 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: > there are other lists that are more appropriate for this subject > but I'll let this slide since it sounds like you need help > > first a few questions: > - are you running shielded *balanced* cable from your mixer to the > speaker inputs? > > - the krk vxt4 inputs are configured as follows: > > Input: > XLR-1/4 in. TRS Combo > 10k Ohm Blanced > Pin 1 + Sleeve = Ground > Pin 2 + Tip = (+) High > Pin 3 + Ring = (-) Low > > are you sure your cables are TRS and that your sleeves are actually > grounded to the mixer chassis and electrical ground? > buy a cheap continuity tester at your local Radio Shack or Conrads > and check the grounding on your equipment > > - have you checked for ground loops? > - try plugging in your active speakers into a different circuit on > the AC power in your house > > other than that Google for ground loops since there is a lot of info > on how to battle grounding and shielding demons > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > From chrismolinski at hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 19:16:02 2009 From: chrismolinski at hotmail.com (Chris Molinski) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:16:02 -0500 Subject: [microsound] Big Ears Festival: Fennesz, Philip Glass, Pauline Oliveros, Matmos, Nic Collins Message-ID: Big Ears 2009 Knoxville, TN Feb 6,7,8 ---------------------------------------------------- http://www.bigearsfestival.com/schedule.html ---------------------------------------------------- ANTONY AND THE JOHNSONS BURNING STAR CORE NICOLAS COLLINS DAVID DANIELL DAN DEACON FENCE KITCHEN FENNESZ (solo) FENNESZ/LINKOUS/MINOR MICHAEL GIRA (Swans / Angels of Light) PHILIP GLASS LARKIN GRIMM NEIL HAMBURGER JON HASSELL + MAARIFA STREET LUMINESCENT ORCHESTRII MATMOSTHE NECKS NEGATIVLAND PAULINE OLIVEROS SAN AGUSTIN SXIP SHIREY'S SONIC NEW YORK WENDY SUTTER SHAKING RAY LEVIS NED ROTHENBERG Individual Tickets + Festival Passes ---------------------------------------------------- http://www.bigearsfestival.com/tickets.html _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009 From kim at anechoicmedia.com Wed Jan 28 10:15:10 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:15:10 -0800 Subject: [microsound] [ot] cello scrotum Message-ID: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7853564.stm this leads me to wonder what sort of medical hoax we could start for microsound/laptop musicians...? let's keep it clean though ;) From maurice at mac.com Wed Jan 28 10:18:11 2009 From: maurice at mac.com (Maurice Rickard) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:18:11 -0500 Subject: [microsound] [ot] cello scrotum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49807733.4020906@mac.com> Kim Cascone wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7853564.stm > > this leads me to wonder what sort of medical hoax we could start for > microsound/laptop musicians...? > let's keep it clean though ;) Well, dirty mouse balls are a real phenomenon affecting performance...but they're not technically medical. -- Maurice Rickard http://mauricerickard.com/ | http://onezeromusic.com/ From bruce at skeletonhome.com Wed Jan 28 10:19:17 2009 From: bruce at skeletonhome.com (Bruce Tovsky) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:19:17 -0500 Subject: [microsound] [ot] cello scrotum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57C9AB73-5B1B-435F-828B-46CC9A315FAE@skeletonhome.com> contagious tinnitus? b On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Kim Cascone wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7853564.stm > > this leads me to wonder what sort of medical hoax we could start for > microsound/laptop musicians...? > let's keep it clean though ;) > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound bruce tovsky www.skeletonhome.com "Reality is whatever refuses to go away when I stop believing in it.." Philip K. Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090128/5658a39a/attachment.htm From kim at anechoicmedia.com Wed Jan 28 10:34:46 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:34:46 -0800 Subject: [microsound] README: old but still in force Message-ID: *ORIGINALLY POSTED MAY.20.2005:* ====================== the fact that several people just posted announcements to the microsound list proves to me that the people who are still posting announcements after a month of having the announcements list made available for this actually don't bother reading the list...but they don't mind using it as a way to promote something...this is not what the list was intended to be used for and why the other list was set up... *please if you are going to post your project announcements to a list you should really take the time to actually read it from time to time...no? ============================================================ below is the info w/r/t the microsound-announcement list for those who have just joined the microsound list: ============================================================ John Saylor has generously donated both his server space and time setting up a new list for members who want to promote content...it is called the microsound-announce list and can be found here: http://microsound.nexthop.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound-announce ########################################### - this is where the microsound community should post announcements promoting their music, label, radio show, upcoming concert, or whatever... ########################################### - here is how the process of switching over is going to work: - all people who normally post announcements to the microsound list will have two weeks (Friday April 8) to update their address books and switch to the announce list for posting future microsound related announcements - after April 8 (last Friday) members still posting announcements to the regular microsound list will be contacted by email and politely asked to redirect their posts to the microsound-announce list - if after a couple of polite requests the poster continues to post announcements to the regular list their microsound account will be terminated... - the process should be pretty simple but if there are problems unsub'ing or sub'ing please contact: Andy Thomas - for the microsound list or John Saylor - for the microsound-announce list and let them know about the problem you are having... thanks! KIM From craque at craque.net Wed Jan 28 11:00:33 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:00:33 -0800 Subject: [microsound] homebuilt sample player (was: why i'm not excited about Live) In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901261825n7ff48fe0oda1b74e1c40580ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <535a89520901261816h21683f7fyf8d281a994fb996d@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901261825n7ff48fe0oda1b74e1c40580ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49808121.3060504@craque.net> Ah nice! Good find. Wish it had some storage though. Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > I believe that is a typo and it should say 16bit. > > Here's another Arduino shield I just learned about that also allows for > recording: > http://www.spikenzielabs.com/SpikenzieLabs/VoiceShield.html > > -J > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Neil Clopton > wrote: > > > 12 bit? > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From dave at mysterybear.net Wed Jan 28 11:45:06 2009 From: dave at mysterybear.net (Dave Seidel) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:45:06 -0500 Subject: [microsound] [ot] cello scrotum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49808B92.2010807@mysterybear.net> Knob finger? Kim Cascone wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7853564.stm > > this leads me to wonder what sort of medical hoax we could start for > microsound/laptop musicians...? > let's keep it clean though ;) > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -- ~DaveSeidel = [ http://mysterybear.net, http://daveseidel.tumblr.com, http://twitter.com/DaveSeidel ]; From jasonw22 at gmail.com Wed Jan 28 11:51:15 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:51:15 -0800 Subject: [microsound] homebuilt sample player (was: why i'm not excited about Live) In-Reply-To: <49808121.3060504@craque.net> References: <535a89520901261816h21683f7fyf8d281a994fb996d@mail.gmail.com> <7a37090d0901261825n7ff48fe0oda1b74e1c40580ef@mail.gmail.com> <49808121.3060504@craque.net> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901280851i75911419n6da9d1b4888dd003@mail.gmail.com> It has a little. Sample quality is pretty low, which minimizes storage space requirements somewhat. The cool part is the addressable memory, which is what makes it so easy to make the button board work with it. (see second video on the page) Here's the spec sheet for the "voice recorder" chip: http://www.nuvoton.com/hq/enu/ProductAndSales/ProductLines/ConsumerElectronicsIC/ISDVoiceIC/ISDChipCorder/ISD4003.htm I suppose there's no reason you couldn't build more than one of these things and have them sitting side by side, in order to "expand" your storage. The software they wrote to work with it looks like a real time saver: http://www.spikenzielabs.com/SpikenzieLabs/VoiceShield_Software.html -Jason On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 8:00 AM, CraqueMat wrote: > Ah nice! Good find. Wish it had some storage though. > > Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > > I believe that is a typo and it should say 16bit. > > > > Here's another Arduino shield I just learned about that also allows for > > recording: > > http://www.spikenzielabs.com/SpikenzieLabs/VoiceShield.html > > > > -J > > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Neil Clopton > > wrote: > > > > > > 12 bit? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090128/86f47bbd/attachment.htm From expe at madicoinc.com Thu Jan 29 10:18:34 2009 From: expe at madicoinc.com (Max & Mark) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:18:34 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> Message-ID: <821A96B53FDC4AF994BBEDFD8BD3EC4F@madico.com> So what do u use then ? -----Message d'origine----- De?: microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound-bounces at or8.net] De la part de CraqueMat Envoy??: 19 janvier 2009 13:03 ??: microsound list Objet?: Re: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too inflexible. And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can get, uh, "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that I'd rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work flow, maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many cases I have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't encounter in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the point that I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will force me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to accomplish musically. It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you get your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use these software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm interested in at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software than a grassroots musician does. In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the creation of the software and not the making of music. This is probably a hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create are immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks will friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. Personally, I feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter Live has gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily confused looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use it. Neil Clopton wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, > wrote: > > > > Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in > > 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. > > > I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. > > > Just because it is > > capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that > > the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be > > discounted without question. > > > I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and > ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a > full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. > > -- > DJ Dual Core's Blog > http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org > http://www.microsound.org _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From craque at craque.net Thu Jan 29 11:02:24 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:02:24 -0800 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <821A96B53FDC4AF994BBEDFD8BD3EC4F@madico.com> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <821A96B53FDC4AF994BBEDFD8BD3EC4F@madico.com> Message-ID: <4981D310.70701@craque.net> External to the computer, I use a good deal of custom hardware and sampled objects and looping/delays. I was a Digital Performer user for a good 10 years before diving into learning Logic, which is what I use now. SoundHack is indispensable, as are Tom Erbe's other plugins. Along these lines I've also employed Plogue Bidule. Wave Editor is now my waveform editor of choice. Check out my software page: http://sounding.com/blog/?page_id=89 Max & Mark wrote: > So what do u use then ? > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound-bounces at or8.net] De la > part de CraqueMat > Envoy? : 19 janvier 2009 13:03 > ? : microsound list > Objet : Re: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live > > I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. > > I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember > before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's > multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too inflexible. > > And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can get, uh, > "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that I'd > rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. > > I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work flow, > maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm > playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many cases I > have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't encounter > in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the point that > I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will force > me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't > complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to accomplish > musically. > > It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several > hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you get > your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use these > software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people > actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other > words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm interested in > at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying > around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird > economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software > piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this > part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to > me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software > than a grassroots musician does. > > In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are > not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they > get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated > that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the > creation of the software and not the making of music. This is probably a > hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create are > immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). > > Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks will > friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know > it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, > and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. Personally, I > feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a > particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a > preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter Live has > gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily confused > looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY > plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use it. > > Neil Clopton wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, > > wrote: >> >> >> > Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >> > 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >> >> >> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >> >> > Just because it is >> > capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >> > the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >> > discounted without question. >> >> >> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a >> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >> >> -- >> DJ Dual Core's Blog >> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >> http://www.microsound.org > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From sofus at email.dk Thu Jan 29 11:17:32 2009 From: sofus at email.dk (Sofus Forsberg) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:17:32 +0100 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4981D310.70701@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <821A96B53FDC4AF994BBEDFD8BD3EC4F@madico.com> <4981D310.70701@craque.net> Message-ID: <4981D69C.7070005@email.dk> Why go from DP to Logic? Im thinking about getting AWAY from logic, as i see only Big Corp written all over it. I have used Logic since 96 and i must admit that some of the features that made it so special is what Apple want to get rid of, which is why im considering going to DP. I cant sync Logic to external midi clock!!!! WTF is that?? Logic 7 could! I cannot recommend Logic to anyone as the way i see it. CraqueMat skrev: > External to the computer, I use a good deal of custom hardware and > sampled objects and looping/delays. > > I was a Digital Performer user for a good 10 years before diving into > learning Logic, which is what I use now. > > SoundHack is indispensable, as are Tom Erbe's other plugins. Along these > lines I've also employed Plogue Bidule. > > Wave Editor is now my waveform editor of choice. > > Check out my software page: http://sounding.com/blog/?page_id=89 > > Max & Mark wrote: > >> So what do u use then ? >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound-bounces at or8.net] De la >> part de CraqueMat >> Envoy? : 19 janvier 2009 13:03 >> ? : microsound list >> Objet : Re: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live >> >> I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. >> >> I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember >> before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's >> multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too inflexible. >> >> And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can get, uh, >> "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that I'd >> rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. >> >> I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work flow, >> maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm >> playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many cases I >> have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't encounter >> in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the point that >> I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will force >> me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't >> complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to accomplish >> musically. >> >> It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several >> hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you get >> your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use these >> software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people >> actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other >> words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm interested in >> at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying >> around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird >> economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software >> piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this >> part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to >> me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software >> than a grassroots musician does. >> >> In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are >> not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they >> get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated >> that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the >> creation of the software and not the making of music. This is probably a >> hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create are >> immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). >> >> Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks will >> friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know >> it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, >> and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. Personally, I >> feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a >> particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a >> preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter Live has >> gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily confused >> looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY >> plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use it. >> >> Neil Clopton wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> > Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >>> > 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >>> >>> >>> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >>> >>> > Just because it is >>> > capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >>> > the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >>> > discounted without question. >>> >>> >>> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >>> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a >>> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >>> >>> -- >>> DJ Dual Core's Blog >>> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> microsound mailing list >>> microsound at microsound.org >>> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >>> http://www.microsound.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090129/99eac758/attachment.htm From billjarboe at earthlink.net Thu Jan 29 11:43:29 2009 From: billjarboe at earthlink.net (Bill Jarboe) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:43:29 -0800 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4981D310.70701@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <821A96B53FDC4AF994BBEDFD8BD3EC4F@madico.com> <4981D310.70701@craque.net> Message-ID: <3CB69615-BD2F-4731-B388-2BFB2C057146@earthlink.net> I think you should use Live. I can hardly be accused of being impatient , and I don't mind if it's version 2 , or if you wait for version 8, or something in between. Of course you may take your precious Tom Erbe's other plugins with you , and I'm not even offended by your using Wave Editor , even though I've never known anyone use such a thing. I don't even mind if you're not wearing Nike tennis shoes , or listening to an ipod , I'm putting my foot down on this one , though. Remember that we live in a fairly liberal and easy going society ( is it possible to live in a society , the great society , the tired of being great yet possibly more interesting society?) and there is nobody really checking up on what applications a person, musician ( yeah , right . Go work out with some muses then tell me how it feels, ok?) is using. The people who work for pro tools don't go around snickering at someone dusting off a reel of Emtec , laying down tracks then chopping it to bits calling them amateurish or irresponsible. Logic doesn't have a huge advertising campaign stating: 'Everything else is just non-sequiturs and insanity'. On Jan 29, 2009, at 8:02 AM, CraqueMat wrote: > External to the computer, I use a good deal of custom hardware and > sampled objects and looping/delays. > > I was a Digital Performer user for a good 10 years before diving into > learning Logic, which is what I use now. > > SoundHack is indispensable, as are Tom Erbe's other plugins. Along > these > lines I've also employed Plogue Bidule. > > Wave Editor is now my waveform editor of choice. > > Check out my software page: http://sounding.com/blog/?page_id=89 > > Max & Mark wrote: >> So what do u use then ? >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound- >> bounces at or8.net] De la >> part de CraqueMat >> Envoy? : 19 janvier 2009 13:03 >> ? : microsound list >> Objet : Re: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live >> >> I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. >> >> I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember >> before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's >> multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too >> inflexible. >> >> And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can >> get, uh, >> "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that >> I'd >> rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. >> >> I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work >> flow, >> maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm >> playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many >> cases I >> have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't >> encounter >> in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the >> point that >> I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will >> force >> me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't >> complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to >> accomplish >> musically. >> >> It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several >> hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until >> you get >> your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use >> these >> software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people >> actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other >> words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm >> interested in >> at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying >> around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird >> economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know >> software >> piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is >> this >> part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it >> feels to >> me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software >> than a grassroots musician does. >> >> In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are >> not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like >> they >> get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated >> that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the >> creation of the software and not the making of music. This is >> probably a >> hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to >> create are >> immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). >> >> Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP >> folks will >> friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know >> it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it >> religiously, >> and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. >> Personally, I >> feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a >> particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may >> be a >> preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter >> Live has >> gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily >> confused >> looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY >> plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to >> use it. From expe at madicoinc.com Thu Jan 29 11:42:13 2009 From: expe at madicoinc.com (Max & Mark) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:42:13 -0500 Subject: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live In-Reply-To: <4981D310.70701@craque.net> References: <535a89520901161419x54d60396p2ce664d38ef39e15@mail.gmail.com> <4974C06C.2010308@craque.net> <821A96B53FDC4AF994BBEDFD8BD3EC4F@madico.com> <4981D310.70701@craque.net> Message-ID: Cool thanks for the blog link! -----Message d'origine----- De?: microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound-bounces at or8.net] De la part de CraqueMat Envoy??: 29 janvier 2009 11:02 ??: microsound at microsound.org Objet?: Re: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live External to the computer, I use a good deal of custom hardware and sampled objects and looping/delays. I was a Digital Performer user for a good 10 years before diving into learning Logic, which is what I use now. SoundHack is indispensable, as are Tom Erbe's other plugins. Along these lines I've also employed Plogue Bidule. Wave Editor is now my waveform editor of choice. Check out my software page: http://sounding.com/blog/?page_id=89 Max & Mark wrote: > So what do u use then ? > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : microsound-bounces at or8.net [mailto:microsound-bounces at or8.net] De la > part de CraqueMat > Envoy? : 19 janvier 2009 13:03 > ? : microsound list > Objet : Re: [microsound] why i'm not excited about Live > > I've tried to embrace Ableton Live, I truly have. > > I grew up on "real DAW" before the D was even part of it (remember > before the Internet that thing called just "MOTU Performer" and it's > multiple copy-protected floppies?), so maybe I'm just being too inflexible. > > And frankly, I haven't explored Live beyond the versions I can get, uh, > "preview copies" of. However, it's such a delicate DRM matter that I'd > rather not bother, because it could stop working, so I don't. > > I like some of the GUI benefits of Live. It makes for a quick work flow, > maybe too quick, maybe too easy. When I use Live, I feel like I'm > playing with a toy, which may not be a bad thing, but in so many cases I > have gotten going in one direction and hit walls that I don't encounter > in DP or Logic. So much so, that it's been frustrating to the point that > I can't use Live because I know the walls are there, and Live will force > me to work in a certain Live-Paradigm that sometimes just isn't > complemented by my brain (and vice versa) or what I want to accomplish > musically. > > It's extremely cost prohibitive for me as well. Laying down several > hundred clams on a DAW means to me: you're using that DAW until you get > your money's worth. When I wonder about how many people I know use these > software packages illegally, I also wonder about how many people > actually pay for them, and what the real market demand is. In other > words, the sort of grassroots/DIY/homemade music (that I'm interested in > at least) isn't made by people that have a few grand of cash lying > around to buy software to help them make music. There's a weird > economical constant buried in there someplace, because I know software > piracy in the underground electronica world is pretty rampant. Is this > part of the "academic" dichotomy? I don't really know, but it feels to > me like academes probably have easier "legal" access to this software > than a grassroots musician does. > > In the end, I don't use things like Max/MSP and Live because they are > not the way I think about making music, in fact I often feel like they > get IN the way. I'm much more tactile, I get very easily frustrated > that, when using "software" to *create* music, I become lost in the > creation of the software and not the making of music. This is probably a > hangover from being a classical musician, where the means to create are > immediately at hand (or throat, as the case may be). > > Pluggo is plenty for me, in other words. While I know the DSP folks will > friggin love the Live/Max marriage, I don't see a use for it. I know > it's a flexible program, I have a good friend who uses it religiously, > and *I* was the one to get him to move off ACID onto Live. Personally, I > feel like Live forces me to work in a particular way with a > particular... well, "groove", for lack of a better word. That may be a > preset/customization argument, but when I see how cookie cutter Live has > gotten (it's not nearly as slim as it used to be, I get easily confused > looking at its interface nowadays, and now it seems like nearly EVERY > plugin has its own catalog of presets), it doesn't enamor me to use it. > > Neil Clopton wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:00 AM, > > wrote: >> >> >> > Firstly, Live can be used in a more traditional linear way in >> > 'Arrangement' view at the tap of a button. >> >> >> I spend ~98% of my time in Live in the Arrangement view. >> >> > Just because it is >> > capable of undertaking loop based sequencing, does not mean that >> > the software is a one trick pony, and therefore should be >> > discounted without question. >> >> >> I think a lot of people are not aware of how Live's features and >> ambitions have grown. Especiallly since version 6, Live has become a >> full featured DAW with good MIDI, recording and ReWire support. >> >> -- >> DJ Dual Core's Blog >> http://oldmixtapes.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://microsound.org/mailman/listinfo/microsound_microsound.org >> http://www.microsound.org > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From kim at anechoicmedia.com Thu Jan 29 12:33:52 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:33:52 -0800 Subject: [microsound] sound editing Message-ID: > Wave Editor is now my waveform editor of choice. really? I found WE to be uber-painful to use and vastly underdeveloped -- but maybe it has improved in the past year. I've taken a shining to Amadeus Pro after having made the switch from Peak AP still has a way to go but if you liked Peak you will definitely like AP it might not have ALL the bells + whistles that Peak does but it costs a lot less and is a very solid editor From js0000 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 14:01:44 2009 From: js0000 at gmail.com (john saylor) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:01:44 -0500 Subject: [microsound] sound editing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hey On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: > I've taken a shining to Amadeus Pro after having made the switch from > Peak i haven't used any of these, as audacity fills the wave editing needs i have [and is open source]. do these other programs [wave editor, amadeus pro, peak] offer functionality that audacity is missing? has anyone used audacity and one of these others and can say something about the comparison? -- \js [ http://or8.net/~johns/ ] From vze26m98 at optonline.net Thu Jan 29 15:24:51 2009 From: vze26m98 at optonline.net (Charles Turner) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:24:51 -0500 Subject: [microsound] sound editing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090129152451275476.1e16ad91@optonline.net> On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:01:44 -0500, john saylor wrote: > has > anyone used audacity and one of these others and can say something > about the comparison? One thing that's realy nice about Audacity is the pencil tool: you can draw waveforms. Amadeus Pro is "file-based," so applying plug-in effects is more like rendering. I'm familiar with DSP Quattro, where you can loop a waveform and fiddle with plug-in parameters in a "live" session. That said, I use Amadeus mostly because of its simplicity and the "feel" of its interface. HTH, Charles From craque at craque.net Thu Jan 29 15:51:36 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:51:36 -0800 Subject: [microsound] sound editing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498216D8.7080805@craque.net> I used Peak for a while, but couldn't afford the full versions. Amadeus Pro I paid for and used for quite a while. I dislike its plugin implementation. A friend who does pro mastering and did the master work for Supple turned me onto Wave Editor this past December, and I really like its workflow. I also love how much information it gives about your files, and dig the 'processor' window which allows for very easy and quick application of common processing tasks with just a click. It has a nifty built-in spectrograph, awesome file export support (including both LAME and FLAC), and best of all completely customizable mouse wheel controls. If you haven't checked out WE in the past few months, I'd give it a shot. I haven't been tempted to go back to Amadeus Pro yet anyway. It also has layer functionality that is very useful. Kim Cascone wrote: >> Wave Editor is now my waveform editor of choice. > really? I found WE to be uber-painful to use and vastly > underdeveloped -- but maybe it has improved in the past year. > > I've taken a shining to Amadeus Pro after having made the switch from > Peak > AP still has a way to go but if you liked Peak you will definitely > like AP > it might not have ALL the bells + whistles that Peak does but it > costs a lot less and is a very solid editor > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From craque at craque.net Thu Jan 29 15:53:44 2009 From: craque at craque.net (CraqueMat) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:53:44 -0800 Subject: [microsound] sound editing In-Reply-To: <20090129152451275476.1e16ad91@optonline.net> References: <20090129152451275476.1e16ad91@optonline.net> Message-ID: <49821758.4070402@craque.net> Yeah, like I said, I don't like Amadeus Pro's plugin implementation at all, and I use plugins pretty heavily when doing on-the-fly sound sculpting. I tend to get pretty "fast" in doing waveform editing, so much so that it feels like improvisation at times. The price for AP cannot be beat, but WE has (i think) a lot more functionality for not that much more cash. Charles Turner wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:01:44 -0500, john saylor wrote: >> has >> anyone used audacity and one of these others and can say something >> about the comparison? > > One thing that's realy nice about Audacity is the pencil tool: you can > draw waveforms. > > Amadeus Pro is "file-based," so applying plug-in effects is more like > rendering. I'm familiar with DSP Quattro, where you can loop a waveform > and fiddle with plug-in parameters in a "live" session. > > That said, I use Amadeus mostly because of its simplicity and the > "feel" of its interface. > > HTH, Charles > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From mikesweeton at googlemail.com Thu Jan 29 18:58:19 2009 From: mikesweeton at googlemail.com (Michael Sweeton) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:58:19 +0000 Subject: [microsound] Noise Removal Plug-ins Message-ID: <4982429B.3020302@gmail.com> does anybody know of any good free/cheap noise removal plug-ins for the mac thanks in advance mike From lister at sonicescape.net Thu Jan 29 19:11:13 2009 From: lister at sonicescape.net (Jakob Riis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 01:11:13 +0100 Subject: [microsound] Noise Removal Plug-ins In-Reply-To: <4982429B.3020302@gmail.com> References: <4982429B.3020302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090130001113.795138334@mail2.bahnhof.se> The AU plugins that comes with the OS are no bad... >does anybody know of any good free/cheap noise removal plug-ins for the mac > >thanks in advance > >mike >_______________________________________________ >microsound mailing list >microsound at microsound.org >http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound From barbara at carmelbuilders.com Thu Jan 29 18:35:54 2009 From: barbara at carmelbuilders.com (barbara at carmelbuilders.com) Date: 29 Jan 2009 17:35:54 -0600 Subject: [microsound] I am out of the Office Message-ID: <20090129233554.5655.qmail@valley-technologies.com> Thank you for your email. I will be out of the office Thursday afternoon January 29th and will be returning Monday morning February 2nd. Please feel free to contact our office at 262-255-2230 for immediate assistance or leave a message and I will contact you when I return. Thank you. Barbara Weiher Carmel Builders, Inc Design Build Remodel "Where Excellence Is Defined" 262-255-2230 From mikesweeton at googlemail.com Thu Jan 29 19:20:11 2009 From: mikesweeton at googlemail.com (Michael Sweeton) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 00:20:11 +0000 Subject: [microsound] Noise Removal Plug-ins In-Reply-To: <20090130001113.795138334@mail2.bahnhof.se> References: <4982429B.3020302@gmail.com> <20090130001113.795138334@mail2.bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <498247BB.7080501@gmail.com> I can't seem to find them, I'm running 10.5.6, maybe they aren't included? Jakob Riis wrote: > The AU plugins that comes with the OS are no bad... > > >> does anybody know of any good free/cheap noise removal plug-ins for the mac >> >> thanks in advance >> >> mike >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > From flemminglyst at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 19:26:10 2009 From: flemminglyst at gmail.com (flemming lyst) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 01:26:10 +0100 Subject: [microsound] Noise Removal Plug-ins In-Reply-To: <498247BB.7080501@gmail.com> References: <4982429B.3020302@gmail.com> <20090130001113.795138334@mail2.bahnhof.se> <498247BB.7080501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6517a5220901291626v56d5e846nacc83d7f657622af@mail.gmail.com> izotope rx is very good! but very expensive... On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Michael Sweeton wrote: > I can't seem to find them, I'm running 10.5.6, maybe they aren't included? > > Jakob Riis wrote: > > The AU plugins that comes with the OS are no bad... > > > > > >> does anybody know of any good free/cheap noise removal plug-ins for the > mac > >> > >> thanks in advance > >> > >> mike > >> _______________________________________________ > >> microsound mailing list > >> microsound at microsound.org > >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > microsound mailing list > > microsound at microsound.org > > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090130/abe529c1/attachment.htm From kim at anechoicmedia.com Thu Jan 29 21:20:35 2009 From: kim at anechoicmedia.com (Kim Cascone) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:20:35 -0800 Subject: [microsound] sound editing Message-ID: <840DE675-D832-4F6C-99F6-0BDACCB89807@anechoicmedia.com> > Amadeus Pro is "file-based," so applying plug-in effects is more like > rendering. I'm familiar with DSP Quattro, where you can loop a > waveform > and fiddle with plug-in parameters in a "live" session. this is true and one of the things I've bitched about on the AP forums right now there is no clear/obvious way to loop a section of a file which sucks for making loops and there is no real-time audition of VST plugs but usually when I need looping and processing I turn to Peak and Max/ MSP but I also like Soundtrack Pro for simple multitrack work and I'm going to check out Ardour on Linux as soon as I get the 32G SSD in my netbook also can't wait to check out Baudline From jasonw22 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 22:10:19 2009 From: jasonw22 at gmail.com (Jason Wehmhoener) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:10:19 -0800 Subject: [microsound] sound editing In-Reply-To: <840DE675-D832-4F6C-99F6-0BDACCB89807@anechoicmedia.com> References: <840DE675-D832-4F6C-99F6-0BDACCB89807@anechoicmedia.com> Message-ID: <7a37090d0901291910o627bc6c8iabbf0140dd5f6a87@mail.gmail.com> baudline looks cool -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090129/02988d32/attachment.htm From vertgrall at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 22:46:41 2009 From: vertgrall at gmail.com (J m) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:46:41 -0800 Subject: [microsound] sound editing In-Reply-To: <7a37090d0901291910o627bc6c8iabbf0140dd5f6a87@mail.gmail.com> References: <840DE675-D832-4F6C-99F6-0BDACCB89807@anechoicmedia.com> <7a37090d0901291910o627bc6c8iabbf0140dd5f6a87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <602985f60901291946v5c18aca4h4d90e8b8300c8573@mail.gmail.com> Check out Sound Studio http://www.freeverse.com/apps/app/?id=5012 Good Feature set, and very good perf on huge files. -jon On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Jason Wehmhoener wrote: > baudline looks cool > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090129/10bd3ef4/attachment.htm From blutgewitter at gmx.de Fri Jan 30 03:59:52 2009 From: blutgewitter at gmx.de (blutgewitter) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:59:52 +0100 Subject: [microsound] Fw: Noise Removal Plug-ins Message-ID: <004c01c982b9$1d5fd470$5983ba59@koma0815> I bought an edu-version (half price - everyone who?s teaching can do this) of the iZotope thing. It?s quite good for noise where you have the chance to get a "print" of the noise. Means, when you have a bit of noise solo somewhere. But for static noise inside recordings I recently found out that Logic?s Denoiser is quite good. For years I thought it?s crap, but I had some piezo recordings of ice and in this case it worked much better than iZotope. But it can end up in artefact glitching quickly. Manu. izotope rx is very good! but very expensive... On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Michael Sweeton wrote: I can't seem to find them, I'm running 10.5.6, maybe they aren't included? Jakob Riis wrote: > The AU plugins that comes with the OS are no bad... > > >> does anybody know of any good free/cheap noise removal plug-ins for the mac >> >> thanks in advance >> >> mike >> _______________________________________________ >> microsound mailing list >> microsound at microsound.org >> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound >> > > > _______________________________________________ > microsound mailing list > microsound at microsound.org > http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound > > _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ microsound mailing list microsound at microsound.org http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090130/fd4c5dae/attachment.htm From billjarboe at earthlink.net Sat Jan 31 23:41:21 2009 From: billjarboe at earthlink.net (Bill Jarboe) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:41:21 -0800 Subject: [microsound] Noise Removal Plug-ins In-Reply-To: <6517a5220901291626v56d5e846nacc83d7f657622af@mail.gmail.com> References: <4982429B.3020302@gmail.com> <20090130001113.795138334@mail2.bahnhof.se> <498247BB.7080501@gmail.com> <6517a5220901291626v56d5e846nacc83d7f657622af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D8639D9-B657-45DB-92A3-37EFCB941B74@earthlink.net> hello mike, -don't know if you're still there or looking (not that I'm terming you 'noise' or something), Soundhack dynamics is very good , and I'm fairly sure Tom Erbe has a plugin available which is also probably effective (I'm a big fan of his software, almost feel unworthy to use his actual commercial applications , especially since I haven't sent him a c.d. yet). He has the freesound mailing list, and has been quite patient answering questions ; my questions being like an airhead with a lamborghini saying: like , where's the ignition? so, when I turn the steering wheel clockwise , it goes right , counterclockwise it goes left , right? What's strange is that the freesound list seems mostly empty, rather like our imaginary airhead trying to get a date , or maybe the opposite extreme. Sorry if this seems slightly wacky, it's saturday night in seattle and I'm trying to be boring in order to be safe. What really concerns me , and I'm not including you in this criticism, since I've never even heard a 'peep' out of you; is the over driven , clipped beats. I should really write a review in order to be polite , yet that doesn't read like a review in my mind , more of a condemnation, and I still like the music in question. What troubles me is the 'The orcs are coming , man flesh tonight , pound you to the bottom of the oil well , throw you out in the street , finish this skyscraper' relentlessly that I can very easily do without. Isn't here a plugin to remove all that? Alternatively I could remove the beats myself as a business proposition. You could send questionable tracks to my SoundCloud dropbox ( email me off list ; don't wish to foist my cloud on anyone) in exchange for reimbursement via paypal -no , they seemed to have deleted me : hope they didn't have my idea already and think that I was a beat- maybe it's alright now , visa , check, money order or contraband - maybe not contraband , use your discretion please I see it like this: the beats , thuds are representing the structure that made the society , party possible. Instead of being the pathetic loser at the party , why not remove the party so that you , or the person who recorded the track- is there a difference, we're open -minded , socially oriented individuals right?- is all that remains. My words are more effective than a cold shower- I'm sure. Bill On Jan 29, 2009, at 4:26 PM, flemming lyst wrote: > izotope rx is very good! but very expensive... > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Michael Sweeton > wrote: > I can't seem to find them, I'm running 10.5.6, maybe they aren't > included? > > Jakob Riis wrote: > > The AU plugins that comes with the OS are no bad... > > > > > >> does anybody know of any good free/cheap noise removal plug-ins > for the mac > >> > >> thanks in advance > >> > >> mike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://or8.net/pipermail/microsound/attachments/20090131/1cd1df23/attachment-0001.htm From barbara at carmelbuilders.com Sat Jan 31 23:05:23 2009 From: barbara at carmelbuilders.com (barbara at carmelbuilders.com) Date: 31 Jan 2009 22:05:23 -0600 Subject: [microsound] I am out of the Office Message-ID: <20090201040523.8688.qmail@valley-technologies.com> Thank you for your email. I will be out of the office Thursday afternoon January 29th and will be returning Monday morning February 2nd. Please feel free to contact our office at 262-255-2230 for immediate assistance or leave a message and I will contact you when I return. Thank you. Barbara Weiher Carmel Builders, Inc Design Build Remodel "Where Excellence Is Defined" 262-255-2230